Ah me - Semantics - cow one is not cow two is not cow three.
Richard
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 14, 2019, at 1:57 PM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Roger,
Talk to me, not about me. That's rude.
I don't dislike you. What I said about feedback, had nothing to do with you.
It had to do with the list. I meant that this list barely exists. We post
articles and there's a bit of discussion, much of it contentious, and people
probably feel like it's a waste of their time. We've lost a lot of people
over the years. Only a few of us have held on. I certainly don't blame you
for that. But you really are misunderstanding what I write. I'm trying to
communicate, and you're seeing everything I say as an insult. You write
something. I say how I feel about it, and you think that I'm angry at you or
insulting you or putting you down. I'm really sorry that I'm coming across to
you that way. But what you just wrote, this angry rant about me, as if I were
some kind of malevolent person who is out to get you and you are telling
whoever might be left on the list, about how terrible I am, that really isn't
acceptable behavior and I don't think that anything that I've written,
warrants it.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 3:25 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: The blind democracy list
Generally speaking I tend to look over that kind of criticism. I know what I
say and when someone says that I am saying something else or implying
something else I know what I am really saying. I also take into account that
I might be merely misunderstood and so I can try to reword what I have said
to make it more clear. But this constant nagging from Miriam about what I am
saying that I don't say, don't imply and don't even think about really grates
on my nerves after a while. This time she sent two messages in a row doing
the same thing. I just deleted them and went on. Then someone asks how to
unsubscribe and even flat out says why she wants to unsubscribe and Miriam
has to say that it was a way to give gentle feedback about this list. I have
said that I find it very difficult to catch innuendos. But it is not
impossible for me and right after those other two messages it was hard for
even me to miss the innuendo in that which that it was feedback on me. In
addition to being an innuendo it was simply a snide remark. Okay, for
whatever reason Miriam does not like me. I try my best to tolerate her
dislike. But after so many barbs tossed my way the irritation level reaches a
critical point. It isn't like Mostafa. I actually enjoyed his torrents of
insults because he was spewing them out when he was incapable of answering
the logical arguments I gave him. By hurling the insults he was validating
both my arguments and me. Miriam, on the other hand, does not throw insults
and even if she did it would not validate any point I have been trying to
make to her. She simply goes on and on with those little barbs thrown my way
that amount to reading things into what I said that I did not say, did not
mean and was not even thinking of. She even tries to make it out that I am
somehow an unethical villain because I try to be helpful. That kind of stuff
can get really, really, really annoying after a while. At least, though, she
has not managed to reach the same level of snottiness that Alice did, but
Alice pretty much did the same thing. That is, no matter what I said she
would interpret it in a way that I could not understand how anyone could
misinterpret what I actually said. So I say over and over that I say what I
mean and mean what I say so that what I say should be taken literally. I bury
no hidden meanings in what I say and it should not be assumed that I do.
Then the last time I told Miriam that she tells me that she is not capable of
taking me literally. If that is the case then I cannot communicate with her.
That means that no matter what I say she is going to look for hidden meanings
that are not there. Then she will start making snide remarks about those
nonexistent hidden meanings.
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/14/2019 11:29 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
You know, we Humans really are emotionally immature creatures.
Some hide it better than others, and some wear their feelings on their
sleeves. I pretend to be one of the enlightened beings who are above
it all(Ha Ha).
Seriously, though. When I am criticized and feel that it deserves
some thought on my part, I like to thank the person who exposed their
own vulnerability to share their concern with me. Criticism ,
properly presented, is food for thought. But if I am offended by what
is offered as criticism regarding some opinion of mine, or some use of
a word or phrase that is not to the liking of another, then I chew on
it a while, rant to Cathy, swear that the person criticizing me is a
stupid blockhead, and then go about whatever I'm doing. For years I
have tried never to scream back at someone who disagrees with
me...regardless of how wrong they are! I figure that this list offers
folks an opportunity to practice exchanging opinions, stimulating
discussion and gaining mental growth from it all.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/13/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I am very aware of the fact that choosing to leave a list reflects on
how valuable a person finds that list. I said myself that when I
leave a list, even if it is just because I am getting too much email,
that I am making a statement to myself about which lists have
priority for me. But there is no reason to read something into a
person's leaving that is not there. If a person says that he is
leaving because he is getting too much emaml I have no reason to
disbelieve that and I don't make up reasons that I have no evidence
for and I certainly do not make any snide remarks about it being a gentle
way to give feedback on the list.
That was entirely uncalled for. As for suggesting that you leave the
list, that is entirely up to you. If you leave and say that it is
because you are getting too much email I will accept that as the truth.
However, your remark about it being a gentle way to leave feedback
shows that you are unhappy about the list. Your persistence in
reading things into what I say that have nothing to do with what I
say, with what I mean or with anything I even thought of shows that
you are unhappy with the list. Or at least it shows that you are
unhappy about my being on the list. I do not say that it shows that
you are unhappy about how I run the list because I don't run it. No one
gets censored here by me
except now . And the fact that I finally gave in and
censored him was because you pressured me into it. I seem to have
stuck myself with a job though. The first time I subscribed was at
your invitation because you liked one of my email tag lines. After
staying on the list for a while I did unsubscribe and the reason was
that I was getting too much email and this list was low enough of a
priority for me to drop it. Then a long time later I subscribed again
because of David Bond. He was one of the moderators of the BARD Talk
list and he started privately emailing me because he was extremely
upset about, not just one of my tag lines, but all of them and he was
demanding that I remove them. I declined and resubscribed to this
list again to rally support for myself just in case David kicked me
off the BARD Talk list. The problem with him has passed. He died. I
stuck around anyway and then Octothorp fell apart because of another
death. No one was making a move to move the list and everyone,
especially you, seemed to think it would take a technical genius to
set up another list. It doesn't take any kind of technical expertise
beyond just being able to operate a computer at all. You just follow
the prompts. But since no one else was doing anything about it I took
on the job of setting up a new list myself. I was right on the verge
of leaving because the entire list seemed to have turned into a
festival of Roger bashing. But by taking over as list owner I seemed
to have committed myself. The Roger bashing has continued and since
Alice left you seem to be the number one Roger basher not
withstanding Mostafa. This is a job that I did not particularly want,
but moderating by not moderating does make it easier than it was for
the last list I moderated. I might admit, though, that the first list
I moderated probably was a lot more work because, in retrospect, I
realize that I probably did not yet have enough computer skills to
launch that effort. But talk about a thankless job. I am in the
position of being a list owner where the main activity is bashing me.
As for the tone you mention, I don't know what you are talking about.
To me tone is something related to music and it is related to pitch.
I might metaphorically say that the only tone I notice is the
constant hostility toward me and I have no explanation for that. I
offer up my opinions just like anyone else and I engage in kindly and
friendly discussion with everyone. One thing you object to is my
efforts to teach. I am sorry, but when I see that someone does not
understand something that I do understand I try to explain it. That
is a natural and normal thing to do. It is called being helpful. When
someone does the same thing for me I appreciate it. Somehow,, though,
you seem to think it makes me a bad person to be helpful. That makes
no sense to me. But if you really find it so hard to stand anything I
write then perhaps it is time for you to unsubscribe. If you don't
leave us, though, I would really appreciate it if you would respond
to what I have to say and not to something that you have read into
what I say that is simply not there. In an earlier communication you
said that you are incapable of that. If that is true then you are
saying that you are incapable of communication. If a person cannot
say something to you without your applying feelings to it that come
out of nowhere or out of who-knows-where then a person cannot convey
a concept to you at all. Now, I suppose you will be highly offended
by this message because I dare criticize you and if you follow your
usual pattern you will read criticisms into it that I did not even make,
but just think how I feel with these constant snide remarks about my
supposed motives that I do not have.
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/13/2019 9:53 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
1. When people unsubscribe from some lists and remain on others,
it's an indication that the lists from which they've unsubscribed
are less valuable to them than the ones that they've stayed on.
That's why people, like the DB Review list owner, are so pleased to
announce each year, the number of subscribers and the fact that the
list remains stable. Alan also announces statistics for the BARD
Talk list each week. And now that he's the moderator for the Jaws
Users list, he does the same. People see these statistics as an indication
of the success and stability of the list.
2. The rest of your post was an angry rant at me for expressing my
opinion about the nature of your debate with Mustafa. Basically, you
were scolding me or bullying me. I've never complained about
political discussion. I have complained about the tone that some of
us use sometimes, during political discussion.
3. Your suggestion that if I don't like the way in which you conduct
political discussion, I should leave the list, is very unwise. If
there are others who don't like the way you or any other of us
behaves on the list and leave for that reason, there'll be no list.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 10:19 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: The blind democracy list
Miriam, there you go again. You are reading things into what someone
said who said no such thing. He said that he was getting too much
email. I have been there. I have unsubscribed from any number of
email groups because I was getting to much email to keep up with. It
had nothing to do with any kind of feedback. I ordinarily
unsubscribe without saying anything, but if I didn't know how I
would likely ask and it would not be any kind of feedback. About as
close as it would come to that is that it might be a statement to myself
about which lists I give higher or lower priority to.
But when you ascribe statements to people who made no such statement
you are most probably getting it wrong. When you ascribe attitudes
or motives to others that you feel yourself you are most probably
getting it wrong too. But rather than projecting your own feelings
onto someone else who simply wanted to know how to unsubscribe you
might want to deal with those feelings of your own. If you are
really so unhappy with this list then perhaps it is you who should
be unsubscribing. I promise you that I would not pull a Mostafa and
follow you around the Internet forcing my opinions on you even if
you begged me to stop. If, on the other hand, if you stay on a list
that I am on and especially if you stay on a list where politics and
philosophy are discussed you will be getting some of my opinions.
There are a lot of email lists out there that might suit you better
because I am not on them expressing my opinions. You can do a search
on pretty much any of the email list hosting sights and you will
find plenty of them. But remember this. If you subscribe to any list
where politics is discussed it will be almost impossible to find any
where everyone agrees with you. If you are going to get upset every
time someone disagrees with you then perhaps you should avoid email
lists where political subjects are discussed. But there is something
else that you should keep in mind. If you would stop reading things
into what other people say that they did not say then you just might
find out that they don't disagree with you as much as you think they do.
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/12/2019 4:27 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
That's feedback about this list, couched very tactfully.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 3:40 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; deann.elliott@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: The blind democracy list
Ah! A lurker speaks up. Alas, though, it is only to ask how to leave.
Go back to the same page that you use to subscribe, but change the
combo box from its default setting of subscribe to unsubscribe.
Here is the link to that page:
https://www.freelists.org/list/blind-democracy
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/12/2019 3:27 PM, deann.elliott@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
Hi All,
Thank you for some interesting conversation. I've read several
articles posted here, and found them thought provoking.
Unfortunately, I need to cut back on the amount of mail that comes
into my "in" box--Could someone remind me of the unsubscribe procedures?
Thank you,
DeAnn
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of R. E. Driscoll
Sr
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:24 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: my humble analysis of the blind
democracy list
All:
Other than the links associated with blindness I have not
contacted any social links.
Richard
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 12, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
???The following is a personal opinion, and not to be confused
with actual facts:
With that being said, it is my opinion that what we are
encountering is a normal process. A new fad comes along...like
Email. Suddenly we can all chatter from nearly anywhere in the
world. Free! Well, after the cost of the Internet. And so we
gather in little special interest groups. Eventually the newness
wears off and we turn to other interesting distractions.
My kids and their kids are mostly on Facebook. Something about
"liking" strangers is annoying to me, so I keep swearing I'll
never hook up with Facebook.
I've learned a great deal from my involvement with several Lists.
But I've also come up against interesting behaviors that I have
no answer for.
A major question for me is why we can't accept the opinions of
others as just that, opinions. Opinions offer us the luxury of
exploring subjects without committing ourselves. We can explore,
challenge, disagree, and alter our own opinions on countless subjects.
But what I find, is a strong resistance to interaction. rather
than debating an opinion, folks want to defend their own belief
by trashing the opinions of others. We end up with what looks
like a bunch of Fox News Channels, each one shouting out their
beliefs while closing their eyes and ears to all around them.
I wonder if this is learned behavior, or is it part of our Human
makeup?
For my way of thinking, the great value I derive from Blind
Democracy is the open forum on which I can explore what I have
thought, and how the new information fits in, or alters what I
believed. If that makes any sense. The offering of out of the
way articles stimulates my thinking. I don't have to accept it
as factual, or trash it as lies.
It is simply fodder for mind expansion.
Don't others on this list...assuming that there really are,
"others", feel the thrill of exploring new ideas, and plugging
them into our existing beliefs?
Over and over we see examples of emerging dictators shutting down
the exchange of thought, as the nations become less and less free.
And yet, this is exactly what I see on several lists. Either I
am asked to shut my Marxist or Socialist mouth, or people
announce they are leaving the list because they don't enjoy the
arguing. In other words, they don't like my opinions, but can't
offer theirs. Instead of a discussion that leads to mind
expansion, we see folks slam the door against anything they feel might
challenge their own beliefs.
Finally, for this rant, disagreement is not to be confused with
turning people or groups against one another. Disagreement,
given with respect, is the door to a stronger world.
Carl Jarvis, wanting to be an Opinion er, not a Preacher!
On 10/11/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm not sure how many people actually read this sadly depleted list.
A few of us keep on posting, most likely to fill our own needs
for self expression. Once in a great while, Bob Hachey, Penny,
or Frank posts a message. Richard comments briefly, upon
occasion. But we have two people who basically dominate the
list. Roger is our instructor-in-chief. He consistently
instructs us in logic, and keeps our thoughts and language
usage within, what he believes to be, appropriate boundaries. Carl is
our loving and gentle preacher.
It is not traditional religion that he preaches, but a gentle
version of what Roger is attempting to teach. Roger enjoys debate.
Carl never argues and is always kind and thoughtful. It's kind
of like, "good cop, bad cop". Roger and I post articles. Carl is
supportive by always commenting on our articles, although I'm
not sure that he gets time to read many of them. It's a kindness
because of he didn't comment, neither of us would know if anyone
bothered to read what we post. Most people aren't interested or
they just get turned off by the occasional arguments. Few people
are left from the original list and our recent visitors appear
to have left. Evan left because, as he told me, he just doesn't
like to spend time arguing.
I come across some articles that seem really interesting and
that are very different from what is available from mainstream
websites, and I can't resist posting them in case there's some
lurker who would benefit from reading the article and who
wouldn't know that it existed, if I didn't post it. But I do
wonder, sometimes Unlike our two white male leaders, who pretend
that they're not leading, I don't particularly enjoy teaching or
preaching. I'm also a rebellious soul so I have issues with
having my wayward thoughts and emotions, corrected. But I
suspect that most people feel that way.
Most people like to express their thoughts and feelings and they
can usually tolerate a gentle disagreement. Carl and I, for
example, will never agree about how to define class. But it
doesn't matter.
We just occasionally disagree. I've learned from listening to
podcasts on which I hear younger people talk, and also from
articles, that the battles and insults on twitter are a whole
lot worse than most of the really angry interchanges we've had
on this list. I guess that's one of the down sides of technology.
Miriam
