Generally speaking I tend to look over that kind of criticism. I know
what I say and when someone says that I am saying something else or
implying something else I know what I am really saying. I also take into
account that I might be merely misunderstood and so I can try to reword
what I have said to make it more clear. But this constant nagging from
Miriam about what I am saying that I don't say, don't imply and don't
even think about really grates on my nerves after a while. This time she
sent two messages in a row doing the same thing. I just deleted them and
went on. Then someone asks how to unsubscribe and even flat out says why
she wants to unsubscribe and Miriam has to say that it was a way to give
gentle feedback about this list. I have said that I find it very
difficult to catch innuendos. But it is not impossible for me and right
after those other two messages it was hard for even me to miss the
innuendo in that which that it was feedback on me. In addition to being
an innuendo it was simply a snide remark. Okay, for whatever reason
Miriam does not like me. I try my best to tolerate her dislike. But
after so many barbs tossed my way the irritation level reaches a
critical point. It isn't like Mostafa. I actually enjoyed his torrents
of insults because he was spewing them out when he was incapable of
answering the logical arguments I gave him. By hurling the insults he
was validating both my arguments and me. Miriam, on the other hand, does
not throw insults and even if she did it would not validate any point I
have been trying to make to her. She simply goes on and on with those
little barbs thrown my way that amount to reading things into what I
said that I did not say, did not mean and was not even thinking of. She
even tries to make it out that I am somehow an unethical villain because
I try to be helpful. That kind of stuff can get really, really, really
annoying after a while. At least, though, she has not managed to reach
the same level of snottiness that Alice did, but Alice pretty much did
the same thing. That is, no matter what I said she would interpret it in
a way that I could not understand how anyone could misinterpret what I
actually said. So I say over and over that I say what I mean and mean
what I say so that what I say should be taken literally. I bury no
hidden meanings in what I say and it should not be assumed that I do.
Then the last time I told Miriam that she tells me that she is not
capable of taking me literally. If that is the case then I cannot
communicate with her. That means that no matter what I say she is going
to look for hidden meanings that are not there. Then she will start
making snide remarks about those nonexistent hidden meanings.
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/14/2019 11:29 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
You know, we Humans really are emotionally immature creatures.
Some hide it better than others, and some wear their feelings on their
sleeves. I pretend to be one of the enlightened beings who are above
it all(Ha Ha).
Seriously, though. When I am criticized and feel that it deserves
some thought on my part, I like to thank the person who exposed their
own vulnerability to share their concern with me. Criticism
, properly presented, is food for thought. But if I am offended by
what is offered as criticism regarding some opinion of mine, or some
use of a word or phrase that is not to the liking of another, then I
chew on it a while, rant to Cathy, swear that the person criticizing
me is a stupid blockhead, and then go about whatever I'm doing. For
years I have tried never to scream back at someone who disagrees with
me...regardless of how wrong they are! I figure that this list offers
folks an opportunity to practice exchanging opinions, stimulating
discussion and gaining mental growth from it all.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/13/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I am very aware of the fact that choosing to leave a list reflects on
how valuable a person finds that list. I said myself that when I leave a
list, even if it is just because I am getting too much email, that I am
making a statement to myself about which lists have priority for me. But
there is no reason to read something into a person's leaving that is not
there. If a person says that he is leaving because he is getting too
much emaml I have no reason to disbelieve that and I don't make up
reasons that I have no evidence for and I certainly do not make any
snide remarks about it being a gentle way to give feedback on the list.
That was entirely uncalled for. As for suggesting that you leave the
list, that is entirely up to you. If you leave and say that it is
because you are getting too much email I will accept that as the truth.
However, your remark about it being a gentle way to leave feedback shows
that you are unhappy about the list. Your persistence in reading things
into what I say that have nothing to do with what I say, with what I
mean or with anything I even thought of shows that you are unhappy with
the list. Or at least it shows that you are unhappy about my being on
the list. I do not say that it shows that you are unhappy about how I
run the list because I don't run it. No one gets censored here by me
except now . And the fact that I finally gave in and
censored him was because you pressured me into it. I seem to have stuck
myself with a job though. The first time I subscribed was at your
invitation because you liked one of my email tag lines. After staying on
the list for a while I did unsubscribe and the reason was that I was
getting too much email and this list was low enough of a priority for me
to drop it. Then a long time later I subscribed again because of David
Bond. He was one of the moderators of the BARD Talk list and he started
privately emailing me because he was extremely upset about, not just one
of my tag lines, but all of them and he was demanding that I remove
them. I declined and resubscribed to this list again to rally support
for myself just in case David kicked me off the BARD Talk list. The
problem with him has passed. He died. I stuck around anyway and then
Octothorp fell apart because of another death. No one was making a move
to move the list and everyone, especially you, seemed to think it would
take a technical genius to set up another list. It doesn't take any kind
of technical expertise beyond just being able to operate a computer at
all. You just follow the prompts. But since no one else was doing
anything about it I took on the job of setting up a new list myself. I
was right on the verge of leaving because the entire list seemed to have
turned into a festival of Roger bashing. But by taking over as list
owner I seemed to have committed myself. The Roger bashing has continued
and since Alice left you seem to be the number one Roger basher not
withstanding Mostafa. This is a job that I did not particularly want,
but moderating by not moderating does make it easier than it was for the
last list I moderated. I might admit, though, that the first list I
moderated probably was a lot more work because, in retrospect, I realize
that I probably did not yet have enough computer skills to launch that
effort. But talk about a thankless job. I am in the position of being a
list owner where the main activity is bashing me. As for the tone you
mention, I don't know what you are talking about. To me tone is
something related to music and it is related to pitch. I might
metaphorically say that the only tone I notice is the constant hostility
toward me and I have no explanation for that. I offer up my opinions
just like anyone else and I engage in kindly and friendly discussion
with everyone. One thing you object to is my efforts to teach. I am
sorry, but when I see that someone does not understand something that I
do understand I try to explain it. That is a natural and normal thing to
do. It is called being helpful. When someone does the same thing for me
I appreciate it. Somehow,, though, you seem to think it makes me a bad
person to be helpful. That makes no sense to me. But if you really find
it so hard to stand anything I write then perhaps it is time for you to
unsubscribe. If you don't leave us, though, I would really appreciate it
if you would respond to what I have to say and not to something that you
have read into what I say that is simply not there. In an earlier
communication you said that you are incapable of that. If that is true
then you are saying that you are incapable of communication. If a person
cannot say something to you without your applying feelings to it that
come out of nowhere or out of who-knows-where then a person cannot
convey a concept to you at all. Now, I suppose you will be highly
offended by this message because I dare criticize you and if you follow
your usual pattern you will read criticisms into it that I did not even
make, but just think how I feel with these constant snide remarks about
my supposed motives that I do not have.
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/13/2019 9:53 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
1. When people unsubscribe from some lists and remain on others, it's an
indication that the lists from which they've unsubscribed are less
valuable to them than the ones that they've stayed on. That's why people,
like the DB Review list owner, are so pleased to announce each year, the
number of subscribers and the fact that the list remains stable. Alan also
announces statistics for the BARD Talk list each week. And now that he's
the moderator for the Jaws Users list, he does the same. People see these
statistics as an indication of the success and stability of the list.
2. The rest of your post was an angry rant at me for expressing my opinion
about the nature of your debate with Mustafa. Basically, you were scolding
me or bullying me. I've never complained about political discussion. I
have complained about the tone that some of us use sometimes, during
political discussion.
3. Your suggestion that if I don't like the way in which you conduct
political discussion, I should leave the list, is very unwise. If there
are others who don't like the way you or any other of us behaves on the
list and leave for that reason, there'll be no list.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 10:19 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: The blind democracy list
Miriam, there you go again. You are reading things into what someone said
who said no such thing. He said that he was getting too much email. I have
been there. I have unsubscribed from any number of email groups because I
was getting to much email to keep up with. It had nothing to do with any
kind of feedback. I ordinarily unsubscribe without saying anything, but if
I didn't know how I would likely ask and it would not be any kind of
feedback. About as close as it would come to that is that it might be a
statement to myself about which lists I give higher or lower priority to.
But when you ascribe statements to people who made no such statement you
are most probably getting it wrong. When you ascribe attitudes or motives
to others that you feel yourself you are most probably getting it wrong
too. But rather than projecting your own feelings onto someone else who
simply wanted to know how to unsubscribe you might want to deal with those
feelings of your own. If you are really so unhappy with this list then
perhaps it is you who should be unsubscribing. I promise you that I would
not pull a Mostafa and follow you around the Internet forcing my opinions
on you even if you begged me to stop. If, on the other hand, if you stay
on a list that I am on and especially if you stay on a list where politics
and philosophy are discussed you will be getting some of my opinions.
There are a lot of email lists out there that might suit you better
because I am not on them expressing my opinions. You can do a search on
pretty much any of the email list hosting sights and you will find plenty
of them. But remember this. If you subscribe to any list where politics is
discussed it will be almost impossible to find any where everyone agrees
with you. If you are going to get upset every time someone disagrees with
you then perhaps you should avoid email lists where political subjects are
discussed. But there is something else that you should keep in mind. If
you would stop reading things into what other people say that they did not
say then you just might find out that they don't disagree with you as much
as you think they do.
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/12/2019 4:27 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
That's feedback about this list, couched very tactfully.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 3:40 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; deann.elliott@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: The blind democracy list
Ah! A lurker speaks up. Alas, though, it is only to ask how to leave.
Go back to the same page that you use to subscribe, but change the
combo box from its default setting of subscribe to unsubscribe. Here
is the link to that page:
https://www.freelists.org/list/blind-democracy
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/12/2019 3:27 PM, deann.elliott@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
Hi All,
Thank you for some interesting conversation. I've read several articles
posted here, and found them thought provoking.
Unfortunately, I need to cut back on the amount of mail that comes into
my "in" box--Could someone remind me of the unsubscribe procedures?
Thank you,
DeAnn
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of R. E. Driscoll Sr
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:24 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: my humble analysis of the blind
democracy list
All:
Other than the links associated with blindness I have not contacted any
social links.
Richard
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 12, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
???The following is a personal opinion, and not to be confused with
actual facts:
With that being said, it is my opinion that what we are encountering
is a normal process. A new fad comes along...like Email. Suddenly
we can all chatter from nearly anywhere in the world. Free! Well,
after the cost of the Internet. And so we gather in little special
interest groups. Eventually the newness wears off and we turn to
other interesting distractions.
My kids and their kids are mostly on Facebook. Something about
"liking" strangers is annoying to me, so I keep swearing I'll never
hook up with Facebook.
I've learned a great deal from my involvement with several Lists.
But I've also come up against interesting behaviors that I have no
answer for.
A major question for me is why we can't accept the opinions of
others as just that, opinions. Opinions offer us the luxury of
exploring subjects without committing ourselves. We can explore,
challenge, disagree, and alter our own opinions on countless subjects.
But what I find, is a strong resistance to interaction. rather than
debating an opinion, folks want to defend their own belief by
trashing the opinions of others. We end up with what looks like a
bunch of Fox News Channels, each one shouting out their beliefs
while closing their eyes and ears to all around them.
I wonder if this is learned behavior, or is it part of our Human
makeup?
For my way of thinking, the great value I derive from Blind
Democracy is the open forum on which I can explore what I have
thought, and how the new information fits in, or alters what I
believed. If that makes any sense. The offering of out of the way
articles stimulates my thinking. I don't have to accept it as factual,
or trash it as lies.
It is simply fodder for mind expansion.
Don't others on this list...assuming that there really are,
"others", feel the thrill of exploring new ideas, and plugging them
into our existing beliefs?
Over and over we see examples of emerging dictators shutting down
the exchange of thought, as the nations become less and less free.
And yet, this is exactly what I see on several lists. Either I am
asked to shut my Marxist or Socialist mouth, or people announce they
are leaving the list because they don't enjoy the arguing. In other
words, they don't like my opinions, but can't offer theirs. Instead
of a discussion that leads to mind expansion, we see folks slam the
door against anything they feel might challenge their own beliefs.
Finally, for this rant, disagreement is not to be confused with
turning people or groups against one another. Disagreement, given
with respect, is the door to a stronger world.
Carl Jarvis, wanting to be an Opinion er, not a Preacher!
On 10/11/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm not sure how many people actually read this sadly depleted list.
A few of us keep on posting, most likely to fill our own needs for
self expression. Once in a great while, Bob Hachey, Penny, or Frank
posts a message. Richard comments briefly, upon occasion. But we
have two people who basically dominate the list. Roger is our
instructor-in-chief. He consistently instructs us in logic, and
keeps our thoughts and language usage within, what he believes to
be, appropriate boundaries. Carl is our loving and gentle preacher.
It is not traditional religion that he preaches, but a gentle
version of what Roger is attempting to teach. Roger enjoys debate.
Carl never argues and is always kind and thoughtful. It's kind of
like, "good cop, bad cop". Roger and I post articles. Carl is
supportive by always commenting on our articles, although I'm not
sure that he gets time to read many of them. It's a kindness
because of he didn't comment, neither of us would know if anyone
bothered to read what we post. Most people aren't interested or
they just get turned off by the occasional arguments. Few people
are left from the original list and our recent visitors appear to
have left. Evan left because, as he told me, he just doesn't like to
spend time arguing.
I come across some articles that seem really interesting and that
are very different from what is available from mainstream websites,
and I can't resist posting them in case there's some lurker who
would benefit from reading the article and who wouldn't know that
it existed, if I didn't post it. But I do wonder, sometimes Unlike
our two white male leaders, who pretend that they're not leading, I
don't particularly enjoy teaching or preaching. I'm also a
rebellious soul so I have issues with having my wayward thoughts
and emotions, corrected. But I suspect that most people feel that
way.
Most people like to express their thoughts and feelings and they
can usually tolerate a gentle disagreement. Carl and I, for
example, will never agree about how to define class. But it doesn't
matter.
We just occasionally disagree. I've learned from listening to
podcasts on which I hear younger people talk, and also from
articles, that the battles and insults on twitter are a whole lot
worse than most of the really angry interchanges we've had on this
list. I guess that's one of the down sides of technology.
Miriam
