Mustafa,
I think that there are a lot of issues involved in this. One of them is that
most Americans think that it is not polite to attempt to convince another
person that one believes in the correct religion and the other person believes
in the wrong religion. In America, we are supposed to believe in freedom of
religion and freedom of thought. Religion is not discussed in most venues. It
might be discussed in a class on religion in an educational institution. It is
discussed in churches, temples, and mosques. If there is an email list set up
for the purpose of discussing religion, then it is OK to discuss it there.
Now theoretically, anything can be discussed on this list. But Roger has
especially strong feelings about religion. His opposition to it is as strong as
your belief. So it is obvious that if you post your religious beliefs and
thoughts to this list, Roger will respond negatively. That is not going to
change, just as his reasoning isn't going to change your beliefs.
In America, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state.
Religious belief, or the lack of it, is supposed to be a private matter.
However, there are people, usually a particular kind of Christians, who believe
that it is their responsibility to save the soul of everyone they meet by
convincing each person to believe in their particular view of religion. Most
people, including most Christians, do not think that this is the proper way to
act. So they respond negatively when people do it. And certainly, if someone
from another country whose religion is less well known to them attempts to
convince them that his religion is the only correct religion, they will feel
resentful. Add to that, that after 9/11, people wrongly blamed all Muslims for
the attacks here, and you can see why some folks on that ACB list act as they
they did. Americans can be extremely intolerant, as you can easily observe. We
have a President who is an example of the worst kind of American, when it comes
to intolerance and bigotry, nd he encourages those faults in our population.
But these are not solely American traits. You can find them in all the right
wing movements throughout Europe, and in the extremists throughout the Middle
East.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Mostafa
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 12:44 AM
To: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
Cc: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: ICE Officers to Asylum Seekers: 'Don't You Know
That We Hate You People?'
Mr Roger, thanks for your below message.
There is something you are missing though. I do not coerce either acceptance
or rejection of any faith, philosophical thought or ideology. I express my
opinion, based on my convictions and experience. As the only not American in
this list, I quite understand how am I looked at. Previously, I have been
subjected to brutal insult on the American Council of the blind chat list. Its
moderator, Mr Bob Hachey warned that maltreater. When he returned to dissing
me, the moderator suspended his subscription temporarily and asked list members
to refrain from discussing any subjects related to faith for two weeks, if I
remember correctly. Although discussion of faith in general may bait many
Americans, you must understand that it is considered to be a major daily
pursuit for plenty of folks here. This is the problem or, it's the conflict
between faith inaction versus faith in action. Because you reside in the
States, everything turned out to be very materialistic for you. If I went
there, I don't think I'll be affected because I clearly discern what this is
all about.
Please just fathom, faith people are not dismissing reasoning. We just have
different views of measuring rational concepts and thus, we both get to reach
up to totally dissimilar conclusions. I watched your discussion with Jason, the
pastor from Baltimore. Quite frankly, I disliked your sort of contemptuous
demeanor toward the guy. Despite the fact that I do not agree with neither of
you, I wasn't so happy when the discussion has been personalised, honestly,
from your side. I learnt to criticise thoughts rather than individuals. Thanks
to Mr Carl, as he either deliberately or incidentally taught me to do so.
Either we agree or disagree with each other, there is something called respect.
I just had breakfast this morning. As I was eating, I listened to a learning
English podcast brought by the British Council.
It was part of my spontaneous preparation for some of my English classes that
are scheduled later this week. As the co presenters spoke, they were very
courteous and even, played recordings from listeners who are still learning and
most of them, had an accent. They asked listeners to send them messages
expressing their thoughts about various subjects such as local customs and so
on. Why don't we find this so easily in American culture? Perhaps, Mr Carl,
the senior of Washington may tell us something about this. Due to geographical
distance and other factors, is American culture somewhat insulated from the
rest of the world?
On 7/17/18, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
I want to offer you congratulations and some praise, Mustafa. At last
you have sent an email that did not push religion. Keep it up!
On 7/17/2018 11:18 AM, Mostafa wrote:
Both Carl and Mariam, I am grateful you are able to opine your
political convictions courageously. It is clear now that under Trump
administration, rightists dominate even national media. I used to
somewhat respect MPR until recently. I was told it generally reflects
impartial views and it doesn't show support to either liberals or
conservatives. However, this theory in general seems to be not very
true. Any media in the world must be driven by a particular agenda.
Media isn't just for publicity. Behind this, ideas and goals. All
state media here in Egypt, for instance, is full support of the
government. It's pro Sisi and it does nothing than justifying his
policies. Otherwise, funding will be cut and hosts will basically
stay at home.
On 7/15/18, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Exactly so, Miriam.
This is what we've tried to explain to Mostafa. But he is as fixed
in his beliefs as are those people he rails about.
But I don't deceive myself. I may slip this way and squirm that
way, but I'm pretty fixed in my basic beliefs. I think, but can't
be certain, that one difference between Mostafa and myself is that
I'm not bothered by other peoples beliefs...as long as they don't go
about cramming them down the throats of others.
Carl Jarvis
On 7/15/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl,
What that individual on the ACB list doesn't know is that if you
are reading leftist material and listening to leftist podcasts and
radio programs and TV, you discover that there are many differences
among people on the left, and I'm not referring to Liberal
Democrats. I'm talking about everyone who is truly left. If you're
a loyal capitalist, brainwashed by what the system has told you,
any opinion that deviates from the mainstream, seems dangerous. If
you're a rigid Marxist, anything that differs from what your
particular Marxist group has been telling you or what you think
Marxist theory tells you, makes you one of the hated Bourgeoisie.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 10:18 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: ICE Officers to Asylum Seekers:
'Don't You Know That We Hate You People?'
Miriam,
You listened and were horrified. I was horrified and turned it off.
What horrified me was the fact that NPR has become the "Liberal"
voice of the American Empire. Now, it could well be that American
Liberalism has moved to the Right, and NPR is reflecting the views
of Working Class America. But I doubt it. NPR has had its legs
knocked out from under it.
Bit by bit it has done what the Democratic Party has done, which is
to kiss the hem of the Empire's Ruling Class.
And the sad thing is, even as NPR is pursing its lips, ready to
place them to the Empire's ass, the Empire is cutting off funding
to NPR.
As muddled in the middle of the road as NPR has become, the Empire
cannot tolerate them.
A fellow over on ACB Chat, told me that I should read more broadly.
He feels I am not listening to a diverse enough material base on
which to build my opinions. Which he suggests demonstrate that I
am probably a Marxist. And just to stray for a moment, I am not
well enough versed in Marxist Theory to earn that title, but what
is wrong with being a Marxist?
It causes me to grin.
We are supposed to embrace Capitalism, a System that does not allow
most of us access, and often turns us against our own best
interest, but we are sneered at if we even suggest that Karl Marx
makes some sense.
But anyway, after NPR is squelched, RT TV will be removed, along
with such fringe linkups as Democracy Now.
Times are probably going to get worse for working class Americans,
before we come to our senses. But the struggle is always going on.
It may flow and ebb, but eventually Ruling Classes make the same
misjudgement. They believe they can do anything they Damn well please.
And
the People turn on them. We are some distance from that point, but
trust me, our Empire's Ruling Class is busy making the same error.
Although we, the working class, have no part in the direction this
government is going, we do have power. We have the power to sit
down and tell our Masters that if they want their Wars, they will
have to send their own children to the Fields to fight, and take
themselves from their cushy Estates and get their hands dirty
building the war weapons. We, the working class, can refuse to
support the Empire's Dream, but we do need to stay in the fight
whether we gain representation in the Empire's government or not.
When the Empire implodes, we must be there to pick up the pieces.
In the meantime, we can continue reaching out a helping hand to
those we can assist.
Carl Jarvis
On 7/15/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I woke up this morning to hear an interview on NPR with someone
who's written a book about how really terrible the Russians are
and how evil Putin is. If you'd heard this piece of propaganda,
you'd believe that nothing in Russia has changed since the 1950's,
that it is Putin who is responsible for the oligarchs rather than
the economic shock therapy administered to Russia by the US after
the fall of Communism, and that Russia is poised to disrupt our
midterm elections. Listening was horrifying. Everything was
explained to calmly and carefully. It was like listening to the
New York Times, which has a new podcast called, The Daily,
explaining the history of NATO. In that case, the facts were
correct, but the interpretation was flawed. It's very difficult
to expectd the public to understand anything when such clever
intellecdtual manipulation is being used.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 12:10 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: ICE Officers to Asylum Seekers:
'Don't You Know That We Hate You People?'
"...Hate you people..."
Hate is the operative word.
And why not? Isn't that the underlying message given to our children?
"Hate Russians. Hate Chinese. Hate North Koreans. Hate Mexicans.
Hate all Latinos. Hate Muslims. And then there are those we
secretly hate.
Blacks, Jews, Gays, the Elderly, Atheists, and those we hate
when they disagree with our Empire's goals, French, German,
English, Italians, Japanese, and most every other nation on Earth.
We declare people we hate to be "low life" and non human. With
Hate comes Contempt. And just how did we arrive at this sad place
in our miserable life? Several ways. First, Hate has been
pounded into our heads by our Empire's government. If we dare to
disagree, even slightly, we are hated and looked down on.
Second, we've seen the number of broken homes, single parent
households, and poverty spread in ever growing circles within our
nation, while a very few prosper beyond our wildest dreams,
creating deep seated hatred. We have eternal campaigning by our
political factions, using hatred of one another to attempt to
rally numbers of Americans to the many causes. Even in raising
our young, we turn to negative reinforcement techniques for
training. We forget that Hatred begets Hatred just as surely as Violence
begets Violence.
If we working class people can't break the cycle and head off our
decent into the Fires of Hell, then the sooner we crash and burn,
the better for what will remain of Life.
Carl Jarvis
On 7/14/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
ICE Officers to Asylum Seekers: 'Don't You Know That We Hate You
People?'
By Tim Dickinson, Rolling Stone
13 July 18
New court documents reveal the cruelty of Trump's family
separations
The Trump child-separation horror is far from over. According to
the government's own numbers, released late last week, as many as
3,000 children were yet to be reunited with their parents. On
Tuesday, the administration failed to comply with a court order
to return all children under the age of five to their parents;
dozens are still in government custody.
In new court documents - released as part of state litigation
against the Trump administration for breaking up these families -
the voices of traumatized parents are front and center. In
declarations made under penalty of perjury, the parents describe
the anguish of having their children snatched away by the U.S.
government, as well as sadistic behavior of the immigration
officers who seem to mock and berate them.
As described in the testimonials, migrant mistreatment extended
beyond separation - including detention facilities so cold they
were referred to as "iceboxes," bleach-tainted drinking water
that burned asylum-seekers'
throats and still-frozen food that made them vomit.
Below is a selection of the parent testimonials, released in the
case of the State of Washington, et al., v. Donald Trump.
Olivia Caceres (El Salvador)
Backstory: Caceres was traveling in a caravan with her
14-month-old (called "M." in court documents) who became sick on
the journey to the U.S. border.
The father, "J.", rushed ahead with the child, and the two were
separated at the U.S. border crossing in San Ysidro, California,
across from Tijuana.
Testimony: "I learned from other members of the caravan who
crossed successfully.that immigration officers took M. from J. I
felt as if someone had dumped a bucket of cold water on me.
Finally, after 7 days of desperately searching for M., I was able
to locate him in a shelter in Los Fresnos, Texas. [The child was
taken in November 2017 and reunited with his mother - who was
detained at the border but subsequently released in the United
States in February 2018.]
I went to the Los Angeles airport, showed my identification,
signed some documents and they returned M. to me. M. looked
scared, he looked absent, he did not seem to capture that he was
with me. He would only stare.. When I took off his clothes he was
full of dirt and lice. It seemed like they had not bathed him the
85 days he was away from us..
M. is not the same since we were reunited. I thought that,
because he is so young he would not be traumatized by this
experience, but he does not separate from me. He cries when he does not
see me."
Angelica Rebeca Gonzalez-Garcia (Guatemala)
Backstory: The 31-year-old mother fled domestic abuse with her
then seven-year-old daughter.
Testimony: "On May 10, 2018, the day after our arrest, Officers
came into the room and told me that they intended to take my
daughter away from me.
Most devastating of all, the Officers said I would never see my
daughter again. When the Officers told me this, I felt like
collapsing and dying. I cannot express the pain and fear I felt
at that point. My daughter was only seven years old and she was
much too young to be taken from me.
"When I asked why, the Officers said that I had 'endangered' her
by bringing her here. During this same conversation one of the
officers asked me 'In Guatemala do they celebrate mother's day?'
When I answered yes he said, 'Then Happy Mother's Day,' because
the next Sunday was Mother's day. I lowered my head so that my
daughter would not see the tears forming in my eyes. That
particular act of cruelty astonished me then as it does now. I
could not understand why they hated me so much, or wanted to hurt me so
much."
Doris Arriagga-Pineda (Unspecified)
Backstory: Fleeing domestic violence.
Testimony: "On May 20th, I was detained. I requested asylum and
they took me to the 'icebox' (la hielera, where I spent one day
with my daughter. who is
6 years of age. We slept on the floor there, with only the
aluminum blanket.
On May 22nd, they took me to the court, when I got back, they had
taken her away. The officer kept saying that I wasn't my
daughter's mother. What worries me the most about my daughter is the
separation.
It is difficult for her to eat. She always cries. The day I
called, she couldn't speak. My life is my daughter."
Gladys Monroy-Guerra de Tesucum (Guatemala)
Backstory: "I am afraid of returning to my country, because my
cousin will kill me and my children. I caught him raping his
step-daughter.
He is a drug trafficker and he has killed more than 45 people. He
told me, in writing with a note on my door, that he is going to
dismember me. He has threatened my children as well. We had to
flee..The police in my country cannot do anything to protect us."
Testimony: "When I first spoke with ICE officers, they told us,
'Why did you come from your country?', 'Don't you know that we
hate you people?', 'We don't want you in our country.'
"My two children. fled with me and came in with me. They
separated them from me, and they took me to court, where they
condemned me as a criminal. No one asked me if I was afraid to
return to my country or why I fled. There was no opportunity for
me to say goodbye to my children. When I came back to the "dog
kennel" (perrera), where we were being held, my boys weren't
there anymore. I didn't know where they were.
"I am seeking refuge in the USA. We are being treated like
criminals in chains and everything. I'm just seeking refuge."
Maricela Batres (El Salvador)
Backstory: "I had a store in El Salvador. Members of the gang
MS-13 demanded money as 'rent.' I do not have it, and they have
said that if I do not pay
$300 a month they will kill my son and me."
Testimony: "I entered the USA on May 20, 2018 with my son. We
were placed in the 'kennel,' where we sleep on the ground with a
blanket made of aluminum. The officers told us our children would
be taken from us for the crime of crossing the border. The
officers said that the children would not return. One said 'It is
the price to pay for crossing the border. We do this so that when
you return to your countries you do not return, and so you tell
your relatives not to come because we will take your children
from you.' I do not know where my son is. I have had no
communication with him. The consulate gave me a paper in English
with a telephone number. When I call it, no one answers."
Nery Flores-Oliva (Unspecified)
Backstory: "I came to the United States with my 6-year-old son,
afraid after they killed my husband's two brothers."
Testimony: "I entered the United States on May 14, in Reynoso. I
was picked up and taken to the 'icebox,' a cold room. They
treated us badly. My son was with me. The following day the
officer told me that they were going to take my son to shower.
And they sent me somewhere else, and they never returned with my
son. I felt deceived. I never saw him again. I only ask that I be
reunited with my son. He is young.
He needs me."
Yolani Karina Padilla-Orellana (Honduras)
Backstory: "I am a single mother. I received death threats and
was afraid they would take my son in Honduras. That is why I
decided to come with my son to the United States."
Testimony: "When we arrived to the United States on May 18, the
officers said. when would we stop coming? [and] that it would be
better if a bomb were set off in our countries.. From there, my
son Jelsin and I were separated. I was not told where he was being taken.
They only told me he would be a ward of the state.. On the first
day in the 'icebox,' they took me out to have my photo taken. I
did not expect to see my son but they also brought him out so we
could take a photo together. But they did not allow me to talk to him or
hug him.
That is the last time I saw my son.
While I was in the icebox, I was able to talk to an officer and I
told him that I was afraid of returning to Honduras for the
reasons I have stated.
He
told me I was going to be deported without my son. He told me I
would be able to ask for my son 45 days after arriving in
Honduras. Upon hearing this, I knelt down crying. The officer only
laughed."
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