This is a real laugh. Mostafa with all of his tantrums actually calls me
petulant. That is about as hypocritical as this person who insists that
he has the absolute truth calling me arrogant. Anyway, I do want to
respond to at least part of this. Stephen Hawking was right. Science
does not preclude the existence of god. There could be one and I have
explained that over and over. There is just no evidence of it. There is
not the slightest bit of evidence of anything to indicate that there is
some kind of supernatural intelligence that created, directed or directs
the universe. In the absence of evidence one must assume the negative.
If you can come up with some kind of evidence then that would be another
matter. I await that evidence. So far, in the entire history of humanity
no one has done that. This admission that there could be a god in no way
is an endorsement of faith. Faith is believing it no matter what. But
there is a lot more that is not known than there is that is known. Bring
out of that vast unknownness the evidence for a god. If you do that I
suppose you can not do other than go down in history as the greatest
prophet that ever lived. Let me add, though, that there are some
atheists who do proclaim with utter certainty that there is no god. They
are making the same logical fallacy that the theists who proclaim with
absolute certainty that there is a god are making. They are making a
positive assertion and thereby taking on the burden of proof. They
simply don't have it. There is no more evidence that there is not a god
than there is that there is one. I myself often say that there is no
god, but in my case it is a logical assumption, not a positive assertion.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be
counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not
determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/11/2019 4:20 PM, Mostafa Almahdy wrote:
Hey petulant senior, I decided not to pollute my ears with your
wretched terms. You're maliciously mischievous and your Atheistic
disposal are emphatically the clearest sign for your miserable loss.
You must fathom that I don't care about your opinion of me. I don't
believe in an invisible man in the sky. I don't personify the divine.
This is what Christendom does. This is a vivid proof that reflects
your Christian scope of presuming the divine, despite your
disaffirmation or unprovably arrogating otherwise. I rather believe
in a unique Supreme Being. Allah glory be to Him has ultimate
omnipotence to providentially sustain and maintain creation. He
doesn't beget, nor He is begotten and no one is comparable to Him.
This is my belief in brief. Your refuge with incorrectly considering
my argument to be of circular reasoning is just a foiled attempt to
evade. Your inactive conscience is the primal factor of this
incessantly delusional state. Nonbelievers have gone so broadly
conjecturing the commence of the universe. Nonetheless, they are
inwardly aware of the divine existence. They just prefer to interpret
all models of taxonomic variance in merely empirical manner. Even
prominent English theoretical physicist who devoted himself to fend
for Atheism and died recently, Stephen Hawking, circumstantially
confessed on a televised interview, that God may exist. But science
can explain everything without the need for a Creator, he added. So
plainly, science isn't a major barrier
to faith and vice versa. It has rather been flexed by some to make
it falsely incompatible with spiritual engagements. Science doesn't
negate the possibility of God. However, looking at the perfectly
structured and integrated universe has to logically lead to this
conclusion. Islam enjoins its followers to read and ponder onto the
signs of the heaven and within the broader figure of the farther
cosmos. Thence, I don't have any motive to even think of potentially
abandoning faith. My religion doesn't prohibit the looking into the
universe and the study of chiefly temporal pertained scientific
disciplines. Unlike the Church which wholly precluded all sorts of
scientific development in medieval era, Islam bases its major tenets
onto the divine injunction that says, read in the name of thy Lord. In
many verses, the Koran praises science and those who belong to it. You
have sarcastically invited me to dispose faith and embrace your path.
I am seriously wondering, what for? Theology made me confident and
your lack of made you arrogant, ignorant and malcontented to say the
least. You now have to reconsider your unjustifiedly obstinate
temperament. Your objection to faith is of essentially psychological
trait. Otherwise, you would have leastwise looked at the Koran or
cited any relieble or unreliable reference for your oddly
unexplainable dissent to the Koran regarding science in its various
topics. Lastly, you're struck with immense sorrow, perhaps because of
your desolation, pathetic life or both and quite possibly, even more.
I therefore strongly urge you to seek consulting a certified
psychotherapist. I detest to be inimical with some senior like you.
Your situation evokes pettiness. If you need help concerning your
psychologically awful status, I could refer you to someone who is
competent of aiding you properly. I absolutely view Atheism because of
mainly psychological traumas.
On 3/9/19, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, here we have more childish name calling and insults. Okay, I will
try again. I respectfully and civilly ask you to provide your refutation
for my explanation of how your major argument for an invisible man with
magic powers who lives in the sky is circular reasoning and is thereby a
logical fallacy. If you cannot do that, which I very strongly suspect,
then I respectfully ask you to revise your argument. If you cannot do
that either, which I also strongly suspect, then I respectfully ask you
to admit that you have been wrong and to come over to the world of
reason. What I fully expect, though, is that you will spew more
invective and insults. That, again, is just adding the ad homenem
logical fallacy to the circular reasoning logical fallacy. But I keep
giving you the chance to make yourself look better. Every time, though,
you throw another tantrum and make yourself look even more ridiculous
than you already have.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/9/2019 1:14 PM, Mostafa Almahdy wrote:
To the Virginian archfiend, wrath and curse upon thee. I warned you
several times earlier, not to cross your boundries. I'm exceedingly
comported with civil people and immensely strident with rude,
yokelish and pretentious ones. You haven't exhibited any sense of
logic with the radically imbecilic gibberish you ludicrously uttered.
It's you who's peculiarly pestilent, petulant, stupefied, garbled,
tomfool, daft, awless, cozened, anathemised, scurvy, disheartened,
infidel, nescient, noncivilised, tameable, vicious, crocked, crooked,
swinish, opprobrious and emphatically dismantled. You're mentally
mishandled and I'm going to show you how to talk. What is an
incapacitated idiotic senior like you going to do? Even if I lived
nearby your damnable residence which I fortuitously don't, I would
have never thought of unwisely vitiating my cleansed spirit with your
intemperately contaminated figure. Your mind is miserably dazzled.
It's sufficient for me that you perhaps be shot at your piggy head
with a demented sniper in your gravely smutty neighborhood and that's
not improbable to occur in America. I'm here to just destroy you
mentally. I think I'm doing well. You are poorly deluded with being
counterfeitly prosperous. You knew this is demonstratively fallacious.
I'm enormously halcyon with my faith and you're implausibly deplorable
with your lack of. What has your irreligion brought to you so far but
curse and blasphemy? You live insane and shall die in vain. What has
your nonsensical logic of seeing everything merely material has
presented to you? You've foolishly chased illusion to bogusly perceive
superior and has commonly, miserably failed to attain. As I expected,
you won't ever release your alleged Biology certificate because it
doesn't exist and you won't cite one reliable or even unreliable
reference regarding what you claimed about the Koran and its
authorship because you are fibber and chiseler. If you don't like
theology, that doesn't exempt you from being respectful and reliable
which you aren't. You need to be properly disciplined. I'm a teacher
and it's part of my job to thoroughly discipline misbehaving children.
If you were at my presence, I would have laid you carefully confined
on a submission table, took off your shoes and socks and toughly caned
you barefooted until you cryout, mercy, mercy, in agony and regret.
This is the manner by which they used to discipline obstinate children
here in Egypt's rural regions. It's called corporal punishment. It
works well in disciplining misdemeaning children and you're among
them. Sometimes, aged individuals act like kids and thence, they have
got to be treated accordingly. After this disciplinal act, you
should have known how to behave. Dissing someone disgraceful like you
is something its doers shouldn't be scolded. Go to hell mr smart,
curse and wrath upon thee.
On 3/9/19, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Now we have a threat of unspecified violence, unspecified but still
violence. Mostafa, do you have any idea of how much misery you will
cause for yourself if you actually try to carry this out? Is this
really your idea of being civil? I can only say that I have tried my
best to be civil to you, but as soon as I give you a logical argument
that you cannot refute you throw childish fits along with insults and
threats. And then you say that it is I who knows nothing of logic. Is
this a case of that psychological term called projection? Come on,
Mostafa, you have taken it onto yourself to harass everyone you can over
the Internet with religion. Can't you take the inevitable fight back?
Are you really so cowardly that you will run away making threats? Why
can't you defend that which you do your best to force onto others? Give
it some thought. If you can't defend it then just maybe it is
indefensible and just maybe you should give it up. You do yourself no
service by continually making a complete fool of yourself and alienating
people. And by the way, if anything happens to me there is now a record
of your threatening me.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/8/2019 8:21 AM, Mostafa Almahdy wrote:
Mariam, as long as you don't have precise stats, you are not suppose
to arbitrarily refer to them. Roger, you're not more than an absurdly
senior, eyeless Virginian imbecile. Someone used my e-mail address to
unsubscribe me from the list and I felicitously have done so. I've
left the list permenently. Roger, you have proved to me, yourself and
others that you are completely unaware of logic, science, philosophy,
religion and even courtesy for that matter. Theology isn't infertile
and reality lies beyond mere philistinism. There is Allah, there is
heaven, there are daemons, you're among them, there is hell and that's
where you're damnably destined to dwell infinitely. You are enwrapped
in empirical presumptions and you are not able to see beyond them. It
isn't my prob that you are spiritually piteous. You're brought to
dispute for nothing but to be flamboyant. My retaliation from you
should extend beyond scandalising your woeful nescience and insolence.
It proceeds to broadly exemplify your fallibility and absolute lack of
credibility. Just watch out for my immense strike that is yet to come.
I am going to make you gravely suffer in this life and you shall
indeed be subjected to tremendously awful doom in the hereafter.
On 3/8/19, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Of course the discussions of religion here leads to something
positive.
It exposes religion for the complete bat shit wackiness that it is.
And,
Mostafa, you help. You have yet to address my explanation of how your
major argument for religion was circular reasoning. When instead of
refuting my point you start the personal attacks like you continue in
this very message you validate my position. You won't flat out admit
that you cannot refute me, but by engaging in ad homenem attacks you
make it clear that you have no refutation. Really, wouldn't you try to
refute me if you had a refutation? Face up to it, Mostafa, we live in
a
real world. Whether we like it or not we are embedded in reality.
There
are no gods. There are no allahs. There are no devils or demons. There
is no heaven. There is no hell. There is only reality and reality is
enough. There is a lot more to learn about reality than we have ever
learned about it before. Learning about reality is something that can
be
a lifetime pursuit. Studying theology can be a lifetime pursuit too,
but
it is a sterile one. It is just one made up story after another.
Theology is a terrible way to waste a life.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may
not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our
preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/7/2019 9:09 PM, Mostafa Almahdy wrote:
I am now totally convinced that discussion about religion here won't
lead to anything positive. This is another good reason that Miriam
previously mentioned and thence, inspired it into my head. I
initially quitted bringing the subject back because it isn't
respected
and often unhallowed by certain irreligious individuals. Whenever
it's
brought up, people are stirred to expose their conniptions. Roger in
particular, has designated incredible ignominy, nescience and
discourtesy to anything that is labeled with faith or religious
belief. This is truly unfair. It just demonstrates how cretin Roger
is. He showed us throughout the course of my conversation with him,
how dipstick and wanker he miserably turned out to be. I am
flabbergasted at this senior and his incredible ability to be
onomatopoetically pretentious. Roger is simply a hapless, tedious old
racist. Roger doesn't fathom that faith and science harmoniously
parallelise because he despises religion beforehand. He proved his
detest to faith pertained matters as he insistently derided the
miraculously prophetic nocturnal journey to the celestial realm. He
may have sought refuge with this tactic to purposely marginalise my
status. He attempted to do so but he fortunately couldn't. I am
wholeheartedly stiff in my belief and won't ever defer to Roger's
predominantly repulsive tendency. I determined to amply retaliate
and
strike this daft senior with what he justly merits. I'm not incensed
because of his Atheistic perspective. I am rather indignant at his
wildly half-witted disposal and his repeatedly failed attempts to
pretend otherwise. He is mentally indisposed and unjustifiedly
imperious to proper knowledge. He has at least committed five major
offences during this tremendously preposterous confabulation. First
off, he doltishly admitted, that apart from certain Christian
preachings and the unknowledgeable sermoniser who interpreted his
blindness as some form of God's wrath at his sinful state, he
never
experienced any spiritual involvement. If we skeptically entrusted
Roger's account on that regard, Christian preachers in the States
are generically unreliable and incomparably, considered the farthest
from prestigious theological vocation. Thence, their wordages are
formally declined. Second, he admitted that he kept a taped copy of
the Koran but he never attempted to play it and carelessly returned
it
to the library of his local residence. This demonstrates his
prejudiced and cavalier inclination. Third, he on several occasions,
claimed to have a Biology degree but failed to release this alleged
certificate. Fourth, he claimed that the Koran is inaccurate about
black holes, giving no evidence for that. He seemed to be indecisive
but rather despicable. When I sent him a video to counter his view on
this, he didn't even click on its link and came up with obviously
preconceived notion about its content. Fifth and ultimately, he
allegedly claimed that the Koran was authored by prophet Muhammad but
never cited either one reliable or unreliable reference to verify his
proposition. What is this to be called rather than plainly
disheartened and piteous individual? Miriam, Carl and others are
irreligious but not brattish as Roger really is. I utterly discern
the
situation concerning religion in the west. It isn't as crucial
therein
as it is here in the Middle East. It portrays a substantial portion
of
our culture, heritage and identity. Therefore, the two are
inseparable. The west has to respectfully accommodate this condition
and deal with us accordingly. I knew what religion is in the west, I
respect that in spite of my own convictions. For instance, it doesn't
organise social life for many, except for inconsiderable group of
traditional Christians. This is called conservatism in western
cultural terminology. Basically, conservatism in western culture is
properly defined as a theological orientation that advocates the
preservation of the best in society and immensely opposes secular
views. Six years ago, I received a guest from Britain. He used to be
my English teacher at the British Council. I didn't know anything
about his personal belief until we met here in Cairo's international
airport. We chatted at his arrival and he incidentally disclosed his
irreligious identity to me. He told me so in quite a jesting manner.
I
slightly smiled, and had no problem with that what so ever and
invited
him at my home for dinner next day. It was Ramadan and the peak of
Summer at that time. The man came to my house approximately fifteen
minutes before dusk. Although the temperature was so hot, he politely
refused to take even one sip of water. Despite my insistence on him
to
leastwise drink some water, he thanked me and said he would wait
until
people break their fast, saying, it's soon anyway. He has done so out
of respect to the general atmosphere. People loved him, we prayed in
front of him, he never commented and happily ate with us. He so much
loved Egyptian desserts and the dates I typically bring from Medina,
called them so delicious. Medina is the city that sites prophet
Muhammad's tomb, located in western region of modern Saudi Arabia.
I
didn't have another chance to see him again during his brief visit
because in Ramadan, I am usually occupied with charitable affairs
during daylight hours post to work and at night, we are praying. On
his departure's date eve, he called and unfeignedly thanked me for
the
nice dinner and the truly beautiful experience. I warmly paid him a
heart-whole farewell on the phone and apologised for not being able
to
come to the airport to see him off. This is a decent model for
someone
who doesn't believe in religion but still, so respectful. In order to
be respected, you have got to respect others, someone said. Moreover,
this personal experience clearly demonstrates the plain difference
between the competently educated and otherwise. The man obviously
drinks but he never asked for this. He honoured our sobriety, yet he
knew it is motivated with religious tenets. This also demonstrates
the
level of this man's education and more importantly, his civility. I'm
done.
On 3/7/19, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Some folks learn through other folks experiences. I happen to be in
that other group, the hands on guys. Well okay, maybe not when it
comes to certain things, like robbing a bank or crawling down a long
tunnel, but in my experience it is better understood if I am totally
submerged.
Hmm...this is getting me trapped, so I'm going to back out and go
sweep the kitchen and shake out the throw rugs, and even run the
vacuum.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/6/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, I never had a dramatic journey from belief to nonbelief
either.
I
didn't even have an undramatic journey from belief to nonbelief.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with.
It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It
may
not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our
preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/6/2019 1:19 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Carl,
So, what prompted me to say what I did was that you do,
periodically,
make
pronouncements about the foolishness of belief in a personal
deity.
And
sometimes, you make those comments in response to Mustafa who,
clearly,
has a different view on the matter from your's. I never had a
religious
education. My parents were nominally Jewish, which meant that they
celebrated "the high holidays", and sort of celebrated Passover,
but
not
according to the whole tradition. So I never had a dramatic
journey
from
belief to non belief. Perhaps that is why I don't feel the need to
counter
arguments for the existence of God with arguments in opposition to
the
existence of God. I did, as I've mentioned before, go through a
thought
process, probably when I was in college, when I formalized my own
position
on religion. However, given my social work education which
involved
courses on human behavior, I've never considered religion to be
the
major
cause of human dysfunction, just as I've never considered our
economic
system to be the basic cause of human dysfunction. Rather, I see
both
as
expressions of how people function. But it does seem to me that
institutions, once they have been formed, have a life of their
own.
A
government is not the same as the individuals who are part of it.
Take
Obama out of the Presidency, and he won't be planning the
assassination
of
people every week.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 11:22 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions about Religion
Miriam wrote in part:
..."Carl may never stop wanting to make amends for having been an
Evangelical Christian in the past."
Sometimes, Miriam, I think that you have a Devilish sense of
humor.
When I was young, I proudly exclaimed to one and all that I never
spent
time or energy regretting my past activities...or lack thereof.
But I really do have some regrets. And I would undo some hurts
that
my
behavior caused others. And I would go back, if I could, and do
some
of
the things for which I did not have the courage to do. But my
many
religious experiences, like my many political experiences, and my
many
love affairs(many of them imagined), all contributed to who I am
today.
My past is just that, My Past! And I make no judgements on what
or
how I behaved or thought. But there are things in my past that I
do
not talk about, but which are just as much a part of who I am
today,
but
of which I would strike from my Life's Experiences. I still fight
my
own
Goblins and Bogymen, and would hang my head in shame if they were
exposed.
And yet, as I say, they are also part of 83 plus years of
living
and
experiencing that has given me a grand trip through life.
It's true that I become a bit rabid at times when on the subject
of
religion. But religion is just one thread woven into our human
fabric.
But it is a thread that has strong influences on the entire fabric
of
Life. After my days as a small child in Sunday School, learning
about
Jesus, Santa Claus, the 3 Wise Men and a special woman who had
God's
baby,
and the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny, I left any doings with
religion
until I married my first wife. I was 25, and she was 22. She was
a
Christian, and insisted that I should attend church services every
Sunday,
morning and evening, and midweek Bible study.
I took this on in the same way I've taken on every new facet of my
life.
I began to explore and to question. At some point I became
certain
that
most people in our congregation were only paying lip service, and
were
not
true Believers. So I decided to find out what Belief was all
about.
I
was baptized, and gave myself over to Jesus Christ. I accepted
the
existence of God, and the Holy Spirit. I attended a "full gospel"
group,
and spoke in tongues and had visions.
It was an interesting time, with some unexplained happenings. But
I
never
found God. I did find many honest Believers who said they had met
God,
but I also met many phonies and Users. After nearly ten years, I
came
to
understand that God was a feeling. Those who gave themselves over
to
that
Feeling never questioned it, and believed it would carry them to a
higher
place after their life on Earth. While I totally respect those
people
who
are "True Believers", I could not resolve the many contradictions,
let
alone the many versions that caused more strife in the world than
it
resolved. As I questioned others, the answer was the same,
although
expressed in many different ways. I must "trust". I was told
that
God
moves in mysterious ways...I won't go into all the events that led
up
to
my leaving the Christian Faith, but suffice it to say that I knew
that
I
had to be true to myself. I could not simply trust. And to try
to
sneak
along on someone else's trust, well that would never work.
But the entire experience was valuable. My wife and I separated,
not
over
religion, butt because she could not adjust to living with a blind
man.
While I was in Rehab, learning to go forward with my life, she was
alone,
seeing her dreams shattered, and no one was there to lead her
through
to
the other side. We did marriage counseling through a Christian
Counselor.
Finally I moved out. Those were hard times, leaving my
daughter
behind.
But my wife and I did come to resolve our personal hurt, and
stayed
friends until her death many years later. Christianity worked for
my
first wife. As she aged she developed Diabetes, cancer, and
congestive
heart failure, but her Faith never wavered.
How you, Miriam, or Roger or Mostafa deal with your Faith has to
be
an
individual, very personal matter. And frankly, how I feel about
it
should
not matter to anyone else. But it is this willingness to trust in
some
unknown Power, without question, that concerns me. Until we can
openly
discuss and question why we behave the way we do, and how our
beliefs
effect Life on Earth, we will continue to make the same foolish
mistakes
over and over until we are no more.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/5/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I would like to make a neutral observation. The discussions
regarding
religion that have taken place among Roger, Carl, and Mustafa, do
not
lead to mutual understanding or resolution of issues. Rather,
they
appear to be experienced by Mustafa as attacks upon a central
tenet
of
his life, an important part of his identity, and thus, he attacks
back. While Roger sees these discussions as rational debate, and
Carl
sees them as open discussion of personal views, Mustafa does not.
Mustafa is not going to stop believing in his faith. Roger is not
going to stop wanting to prove over and over again that he is the
more
rational of the two and that his position is correct. Carl may
never
stop wanting to make amends for having been an Evangelical
Christian
in
the past.
Miriam
