I am now totally convinced that discussion about religion here won't
lead to anything positive. This is another good reason that Miriam
previously mentioned and thence, inspired it into my head. I
initially quitted bringing the subject back because it isn't respected
and often unhallowed by certain irreligious individuals. Whenever it's
brought up, people are stirred to expose their conniptions. Roger in
particular, has designated incredible ignominy, nescience and
discourtesy to anything that is labeled with faith or religious
belief. This is truly unfair. It just demonstrates how cretin Roger
is. He showed us throughout the course of my conversation with him,
how dipstick and wanker he miserably turned out to be. I am
flabbergasted at this senior and his incredible ability to be
onomatopoetically pretentious. Roger is simply a hapless, tedious old
racist. Roger doesn't fathom that faith and science harmoniously
parallelise because he despises religion beforehand. He proved his
detest to faith pertained matters as he insistently derided the
miraculously prophetic nocturnal journey to the celestial realm. He
may have sought refuge with this tactic to purposely marginalise my
status. He attempted to do so but he fortunately couldn't. I am
wholeheartedly stiff in my belief and won't ever defer to Roger's
predominantly repulsive tendency. I determined to amply retaliate and
strike this daft senior with what he justly merits. I'm not incensed
because of his Atheistic perspective. I am rather indignant at his
wildly half-witted disposal and his repeatedly failed attempts to
pretend otherwise. He is mentally indisposed and unjustifiedly
imperious to proper knowledge. He has at least committed five major
offences during this tremendously preposterous confabulation. First
off, he doltishly admitted, that apart from certain Christian
preachings and the unknowledgeable sermoniser who interpreted his
blindness as some form of God's wrath at his sinful state, he never
experienced any spiritual involvement. If we skeptically entrusted
Roger's account on that regard, Christian preachers in the States
are generically unreliable and incomparably, considered the farthest
from prestigious theological vocation. Thence, their wordages are
formally declined. Second, he admitted that he kept a taped copy of
the Koran but he never attempted to play it and carelessly returned it
to the library of his local residence. This demonstrates his
prejudiced and cavalier inclination. Third, he on several occasions,
claimed to have a Biology degree but failed to release this alleged
certificate. Fourth, he claimed that the Koran is inaccurate about
black holes, giving no evidence for that. He seemed to be indecisive
but rather despicable. When I sent him a video to counter his view on
this, he didn't even click on its link and came up with obviously
preconceived notion about its content. Fifth and ultimately, he
allegedly claimed that the Koran was authored by prophet Muhammad but
never cited either one reliable or unreliable reference to verify his
proposition. What is this to be called rather than plainly
disheartened and piteous individual? Miriam, Carl and others are
irreligious but not brattish as Roger really is. I utterly discern the
situation concerning religion in the west. It isn't as crucial therein
as it is here in the Middle East. It portrays a substantial portion of
our culture, heritage and identity. Therefore, the two are
inseparable. The west has to respectfully accommodate this condition
and deal with us accordingly. I knew what religion is in the west, I
respect that in spite of my own convictions. For instance, it doesn't
organise social life for many, except for inconsiderable group of
traditional Christians. This is called conservatism in western
cultural terminology. Basically, conservatism in western culture is
properly defined as a theological orientation that advocates the
preservation of the best in society and immensely opposes secular
views. Six years ago, I received a guest from Britain. He used to be
my English teacher at the British Council. I didn't know anything
about his personal belief until we met here in Cairo's international
airport. We chatted at his arrival and he incidentally disclosed his
irreligious identity to me. He told me so in quite a jesting manner. I
slightly smiled, and had no problem with that what so ever and invited
him at my home for dinner next day. It was Ramadan and the peak of
Summer at that time. The man came to my house approximately fifteen
minutes before dusk. Although the temperature was so hot, he politely
refused to take even one sip of water. Despite my insistence on him to
leastwise drink some water, he thanked me and said he would wait until
people break their fast, saying, it's soon anyway. He has done so out
of respect to the general atmosphere. People loved him, we prayed in
front of him, he never commented and happily ate with us. He so much
loved Egyptian desserts and the dates I typically bring from Medina,
called them so delicious. Medina is the city that sites prophet
Muhammad's tomb, located in western region of modern Saudi Arabia. I
didn't have another chance to see him again during his brief visit
because in Ramadan, I am usually occupied with charitable affairs
during daylight hours post to work and at night, we are praying. On
his departure's date eve, he called and unfeignedly thanked me for the
nice dinner and the truly beautiful experience. I warmly paid him a
heart-whole farewell on the phone and apologised for not being able to
come to the airport to see him off. This is a decent model for someone
who doesn't believe in religion but still, so respectful. In order to
be respected, you have got to respect others, someone said. Moreover,
this personal experience clearly demonstrates the plain difference
between the competently educated and otherwise. The man obviously
drinks but he never asked for this. He honoured our sobriety, yet he
knew it is motivated with religious tenets. This also demonstrates the
level of this man's education and more importantly, his civility. I'm
done.
On 3/7/19, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Some folks learn through other folks experiences. I happen to be in
that other group, the hands on guys. Well okay, maybe not when it
comes to certain things, like robbing a bank or crawling down a long
tunnel, but in my experience it is better understood if I am totally
submerged.
Hmm...this is getting me trapped, so I'm going to back out and go
sweep the kitchen and shake out the throw rugs, and even run the
vacuum.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/6/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, I never had a dramatic journey from belief to nonbelief either. I
didn't even have an undramatic journey from belief to nonbelief.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It
may
be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not
be
consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences
do
not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/6/2019 1:19 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Carl,
So, what prompted me to say what I did was that you do, periodically,
make
pronouncements about the foolishness of belief in a personal deity. And
sometimes, you make those comments in response to Mustafa who, clearly,
has a different view on the matter from your's. I never had a religious
education. My parents were nominally Jewish, which meant that they
celebrated "the high holidays", and sort of celebrated Passover, but not
according to the whole tradition. So I never had a dramatic journey from
belief to non belief. Perhaps that is why I don't feel the need to
counter
arguments for the existence of God with arguments in opposition to the
existence of God. I did, as I've mentioned before, go through a thought
process, probably when I was in college, when I formalized my own
position
on religion. However, given my social work education which involved
courses on human behavior, I've never considered religion to be the
major
cause of human dysfunction, just as I've never considered our economic
system to be the basic cause of human dysfunction. Rather, I see both as
expressions of how people function. But it does seem to me that
institutions, once they have been formed, have a life of their own. A
government is not the same as the individuals who are part of it. Take
Obama out of the Presidency, and he won't be planning the assassination
of
people every week.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 11:22 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions about Religion
Miriam wrote in part:
..."Carl may never stop wanting to make amends for having been an
Evangelical Christian in the past."
Sometimes, Miriam, I think that you have a Devilish sense of humor.
When I was young, I proudly exclaimed to one and all that I never spent
time or energy regretting my past activities...or lack thereof.
But I really do have some regrets. And I would undo some hurts that my
behavior caused others. And I would go back, if I could, and do some of
the things for which I did not have the courage to do. But my many
religious experiences, like my many political experiences, and my many
love affairs(many of them imagined), all contributed to who I am today.
My past is just that, My Past! And I make no judgements on what or
how I behaved or thought. But there are things in my past that I do
not talk about, but which are just as much a part of who I am today, but
of which I would strike from my Life's Experiences. I still fight my
own
Goblins and Bogymen, and would hang my head in shame if they were
exposed.
And yet, as I say, they are also part of 83 plus years of living and
experiencing that has given me a grand trip through life.
It's true that I become a bit rabid at times when on the subject of
religion. But religion is just one thread woven into our human fabric.
But it is a thread that has strong influences on the entire fabric of
Life. After my days as a small child in Sunday School, learning about
Jesus, Santa Claus, the 3 Wise Men and a special woman who had God's
baby,
and the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny, I left any doings with
religion
until I married my first wife. I was 25, and she was 22. She was a
Christian, and insisted that I should attend church services every
Sunday,
morning and evening, and midweek Bible study.
I took this on in the same way I've taken on every new facet of my life.
I began to explore and to question. At some point I became certain that
most people in our congregation were only paying lip service, and were
not
true Believers. So I decided to find out what Belief was all about. I
was baptized, and gave myself over to Jesus Christ. I accepted the
existence of God, and the Holy Spirit. I attended a "full gospel"
group,
and spoke in tongues and had visions.
It was an interesting time, with some unexplained happenings. But I
never
found God. I did find many honest Believers who said they had met God,
but I also met many phonies and Users. After nearly ten years, I came
to
understand that God was a feeling. Those who gave themselves over to
that
Feeling never questioned it, and believed it would carry them to a
higher
place after their life on Earth. While I totally respect those people
who
are "True Believers", I could not resolve the many contradictions, let
alone the many versions that caused more strife in the world than it
resolved. As I questioned others, the answer was the same, although
expressed in many different ways. I must "trust". I was told that God
moves in mysterious ways...I won't go into all the events that led up to
my leaving the Christian Faith, but suffice it to say that I knew that I
had to be true to myself. I could not simply trust. And to try to
sneak
along on someone else's trust, well that would never work.
But the entire experience was valuable. My wife and I separated, not
over
religion, butt because she could not adjust to living with a blind man.
While I was in Rehab, learning to go forward with my life, she was
alone,
seeing her dreams shattered, and no one was there to lead her through to
the other side. We did marriage counseling through a Christian
Counselor.
Finally I moved out. Those were hard times, leaving my daughter
behind.
But my wife and I did come to resolve our personal hurt, and stayed
friends until her death many years later. Christianity worked for my
first wife. As she aged she developed Diabetes, cancer, and congestive
heart failure, but her Faith never wavered.
How you, Miriam, or Roger or Mostafa deal with your Faith has to be an
individual, very personal matter. And frankly, how I feel about it
should
not matter to anyone else. But it is this willingness to trust in some
unknown Power, without question, that concerns me. Until we can openly
discuss and question why we behave the way we do, and how our beliefs
effect Life on Earth, we will continue to make the same foolish mistakes
over and over until we are no more.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/5/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I would like to make a neutral observation. The discussions regarding
religion that have taken place among Roger, Carl, and Mustafa, do not
lead to mutual understanding or resolution of issues. Rather, they
appear to be experienced by Mustafa as attacks upon a central tenet of
his life, an important part of his identity, and thus, he attacks
back. While Roger sees these discussions as rational debate, and Carl
sees them as open discussion of personal views, Mustafa does not.
Mustafa is not going to stop believing in his faith. Roger is not
going to stop wanting to prove over and over again that he is the more
rational of the two and that his position is correct. Carl may never
stop wanting to make amends for having been an Evangelical Christian in
the past.
Miriam
