Mustafa,
Just to clarify, the statistics show that a large percentage of Americans
consider themselves to be religious. Of course, the statistics come from polls
and people's answers are subjective. The majority of people in this country are
Protestant, but that particular kind of Christianity is broken down into many
different sects. And then there are many religious people here who aren't
Christian. In this country, the word, "conservative", has traditionally been
applied to one's political views, not to whether or not one is religious.
Back in the 1990's when I first began participating on email lists, most of
them had a rule that related to behavior. It was expected that people would
have good manners, would not "flame" each other. "Flaming" meant insulting
someone, or calling someone bad names. Disagreements were supposed to be
polite. From time to time, unfortunately, many people on this list have
forgotten how useful that old rule was. It's especially important to think
carefully about the words one chooses if one is not completely comfortable and
versatile in the language one is using.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Mostafa Almahdy
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 9:09 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions about Religion
I am now totally convinced that discussion about religion here won't lead to
anything positive. This is another good reason that Miriam previously mentioned
and thence, inspired it into my head. I initially quitted bringing the subject
back because it isn't respected and often unhallowed by certain irreligious
individuals. Whenever it's brought up, people are stirred to expose their
conniptions. Roger in particular, has designated incredible ignominy, nescience
and discourtesy to anything that is labeled with faith or religious belief.
This is truly unfair. It just demonstrates how cretin Roger is. He showed us
throughout the course of my conversation with him, how dipstick and wanker he
miserably turned out to be. I am flabbergasted at this senior and his
incredible ability to be onomatopoetically pretentious. Roger is simply a
hapless, tedious old racist. Roger doesn't fathom that faith and science
harmoniously parallelise because he despises religion beforehand. He proved his
detest to faith pertained matters as he insistently derided the miraculously
prophetic nocturnal journey to the celestial realm. He may have sought refuge
with this tactic to purposely marginalise my status. He attempted to do so but
he fortunately couldn't. I am wholeheartedly stiff in my belief and won't ever
defer to Roger's predominantly repulsive tendency. I determined to amply
retaliate and strike this daft senior with what he justly merits. I'm not
incensed because of his Atheistic perspective. I am rather indignant at his
wildly half-witted disposal and his repeatedly failed attempts to pretend
otherwise. He is mentally indisposed and unjustifiedly imperious to proper
knowledge. He has at least committed five major offences during this
tremendously preposterous confabulation. First off, he doltishly admitted, that
apart from certain Christian preachings and the unknowledgeable sermoniser who
interpreted his
blindness as some form of God's wrath at his sinful state, he never
experienced any spiritual involvement. If we skeptically entrusted
Roger's account on that regard, Christian preachers in the States
are generically unreliable and incomparably, considered the farthest from
prestigious theological vocation. Thence, their wordages are formally declined.
Second, he admitted that he kept a taped copy of the Koran but he never
attempted to play it and carelessly returned it to the library of his local
residence. This demonstrates his prejudiced and cavalier inclination. Third, he
on several occasions, claimed to have a Biology degree but failed to release
this alleged certificate. Fourth, he claimed that the Koran is inaccurate about
black holes, giving no evidence for that. He seemed to be indecisive but rather
despicable. When I sent him a video to counter his view on this, he didn't even
click on its link and came up with obviously preconceived notion about its
content. Fifth and ultimately, he allegedly claimed that the Koran was authored
by prophet Muhammad but never cited either one reliable or unreliable reference
to verify his proposition. What is this to be called rather than plainly
disheartened and piteous individual? Miriam, Carl and others are irreligious
but not brattish as Roger really is. I utterly discern the situation concerning
religion in the west. It isn't as crucial therein as it is here in the Middle
East. It portrays a substantial portion of our culture, heritage and identity.
Therefore, the two are inseparable. The west has to respectfully accommodate
this condition and deal with us accordingly. I knew what religion is in the
west, I respect that in spite of my own convictions. For instance, it doesn't
organise social life for many, except for inconsiderable group of traditional
Christians. This is called conservatism in western
cultural terminology. Basically, conservatism in western culture is
properly defined as a theological orientation that advocates the preservation
of the best in society and immensely opposes secular views. Six years ago, I
received a guest from Britain. He used to be my English teacher at the British
Council. I didn't know anything about his personal belief until we met here in
Cairo's international airport. We chatted at his arrival and he incidentally
disclosed his irreligious identity to me. He told me so in quite a jesting
manner. I slightly smiled, and had no problem with that what so ever and
invited him at my home for dinner next day. It was Ramadan and the peak of
Summer at that time. The man came to my house approximately fifteen minutes
before dusk. Although the temperature was so hot, he politely refused to take
even one sip of water. Despite my insistence on him to leastwise drink some
water, he thanked me and said he would wait until people break their fast,
saying, it's soon anyway. He has done so out of respect to the general
atmosphere. People loved him, we prayed in front of him, he never commented and
happily ate with us. He so much loved Egyptian desserts and the dates I
typically bring from Medina, called them so delicious. Medina is the city that
sites prophet Muhammad's tomb, located in western region of modern Saudi
Arabia. I didn't have another chance to see him again during his brief visit
because in Ramadan, I am usually occupied with charitable affairs during
daylight hours post to work and at night, we are praying. On his departure's
date eve, he called and unfeignedly thanked me for the nice dinner and the
truly beautiful experience. I warmly paid him a heart-whole farewell on the
phone and apologised for not being able to come to the airport to see him off.
This is a decent model for someone who doesn't believe in religion but still,
so respectful. In order to be respected, you have got to respect others,
someone said. Moreover, this personal experience clearly demonstrates the plain
difference between the competently educated and otherwise. The man obviously
drinks but he never asked for this. He honoured our sobriety, yet he knew it is
motivated with religious tenets. This also demonstrates the level of this man's
education and more importantly, his civility. I'm done.
On 3/7/19, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Some folks learn through other folks experiences. I happen to be in
that other group, the hands on guys. Well okay, maybe not when it
comes to certain things, like robbing a bank or crawling down a long
tunnel, but in my experience it is better understood if I am totally
submerged.
Hmm...this is getting me trapped, so I'm going to back out and go
sweep the kitchen and shake out the throw rugs, and even run the
vacuum.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/6/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, I never had a dramatic journey from belief to nonbelief either.
I didn't even have an undramatic journey from belief to nonbelief.
---
Carl Sagan
“ The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with.
It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices.
It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But
our preferences do not determine what's true. ”
― Carl Sagan
On 3/6/2019 1:19 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Carl,
So, what prompted me to say what I did was that you do,
periodically, make pronouncements about the foolishness of belief in
a personal deity. And sometimes, you make those comments in response
to Mustafa who, clearly, has a different view on the matter from
your's. I never had a religious education. My parents were nominally
Jewish, which meant that they celebrated "the high holidays", and
sort of celebrated Passover, but not according to the whole
tradition. So I never had a dramatic journey from belief to non
belief. Perhaps that is why I don't feel the need to counter
arguments for the existence of God with arguments in opposition to
the existence of God. I did, as I've mentioned before, go through a
thought process, probably when I was in college, when I formalized
my own position on religion. However, given my social work education
which involved courses on human behavior, I've never considered
religion to be the major cause of human dysfunction, just as I've
never considered our economic system to be the basic cause of human
dysfunction. Rather, I see both as expressions of how people
function. But it does seem to me that institutions, once they have
been formed, have a life of their own. A government is not the same
as the individuals who are part of it. Take Obama out of the
Presidency, and he won't be planning the assassination of people
every week.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 11:22 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions about Religion
Miriam wrote in part:
..."Carl may never stop wanting to make amends for having been an
Evangelical Christian in the past."
Sometimes, Miriam, I think that you have a Devilish sense of humor.
When I was young, I proudly exclaimed to one and all that I never
spent time or energy regretting my past activities...or lack thereof.
But I really do have some regrets. And I would undo some hurts that
my behavior caused others. And I would go back, if I could, and do
some of the things for which I did not have the courage to do. But
my many religious experiences, like my many political experiences,
and my many love affairs(many of them imagined), all contributed to who I
am today.
My past is just that, My Past! And I make no judgements on what or
how I behaved or thought. But there are things in my past that I do
not talk about, but which are just as much a part of who I am today,
but of which I would strike from my Life's Experiences. I still
fight my own Goblins and Bogymen, and would hang my head in shame if
they were exposed.
And yet, as I say, they are also part of 83 plus years of living
and experiencing that has given me a grand trip through life.
It's true that I become a bit rabid at times when on the subject of
religion. But religion is just one thread woven into our human fabric.
But it is a thread that has strong influences on the entire fabric
of Life. After my days as a small child in Sunday School, learning
about Jesus, Santa Claus, the 3 Wise Men and a special woman who had
God's baby, and the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny, I left any
doings with religion until I married my first wife. I was 25, and
she was 22. She was a Christian, and insisted that I should attend
church services every Sunday, morning and evening, and midweek Bible
study.
I took this on in the same way I've taken on every new facet of my life.
I began to explore and to question. At some point I became certain
that most people in our congregation were only paying lip service,
and were not true Believers. So I decided to find out what Belief
was all about. I was baptized, and gave myself over to Jesus
Christ. I accepted the existence of God, and the Holy Spirit. I
attended a "full gospel"
group,
and spoke in tongues and had visions.
It was an interesting time, with some unexplained happenings. But I
never found God. I did find many honest Believers who said they had
met God, but I also met many phonies and Users. After nearly ten
years, I came to understand that God was a feeling. Those who gave
themselves over to that Feeling never questioned it, and believed it
would carry them to a higher place after their life on Earth. While
I totally respect those people who are "True Believers", I could not
resolve the many contradictions, let alone the many versions that
caused more strife in the world than it resolved. As I questioned
others, the answer was the same, although expressed in many
different ways. I must "trust". I was told that God moves in
mysterious ways...I won't go into all the events that led up to my
leaving the Christian Faith, but suffice it to say that I knew that
I had to be true to myself. I could not simply trust. And to try
to sneak along on someone else's trust, well that would never work.
But the entire experience was valuable. My wife and I separated,
not over religion, butt because she could not adjust to living with
a blind man.
While I was in Rehab, learning to go forward with my life, she was
alone, seeing her dreams shattered, and no one was there to lead her
through to the other side. We did marriage counseling through a
Christian Counselor.
Finally I moved out. Those were hard times, leaving my daughter
behind.
But my wife and I did come to resolve our personal hurt, and stayed
friends until her death many years later. Christianity worked for
my first wife. As she aged she developed Diabetes, cancer, and
congestive heart failure, but her Faith never wavered.
How you, Miriam, or Roger or Mostafa deal with your Faith has to be
an individual, very personal matter. And frankly, how I feel about
it should not matter to anyone else. But it is this willingness to
trust in some unknown Power, without question, that concerns me.
Until we can openly discuss and question why we behave the way we
do, and how our beliefs effect Life on Earth, we will continue to
make the same foolish mistakes over and over until we are no more.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/5/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I would like to make a neutral observation. The discussions
regarding religion that have taken place among Roger, Carl, and
Mustafa, do not lead to mutual understanding or resolution of
issues. Rather, they appear to be experienced by Mustafa as attacks
upon a central tenet of his life, an important part of his
identity, and thus, he attacks back. While Roger sees these
discussions as rational debate, and Carl sees them as open discussion of
personal views, Mustafa does not.
Mustafa is not going to stop believing in his faith. Roger is not
going to stop wanting to prove over and over again that he is the
more rational of the two and that his position is correct. Carl may
never stop wanting to make amends for having been an Evangelical
Christian in the past.
Miriam
