atw: Re: Discrimination
- From: Jasmine Andrews <jasminethetrainer@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 21:34:25 +1000
When i've been a training coordinator and run software apps training, i
have always chosen to name the courses based on the features covered rather
than the 'level'. They tend to be shorter sessions and some would list
specific prerequisites (skills or training). Makes for more interesting
sessions.
Jasmine
On 2 May 2013 11:06, Howard Silcock <howard.silcock@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Yes, a very good point. The ASTC(NSW) offered Advanced Word training
> courses and specifically said the knowledge of styles was a prerequisite,
> but even so I heard that at least one person enrolled without knowing what
> a style was. Perhaps that person thought the word was being used in a
> non-technical sense, to mean something like 'a way to lay out a document to
> look good' - and thought 'well, I know about that'. How do you get around
> that - where people don't know what they don't know? I don't think even
> careful naming would avoid that one.
>
> I think that's why some employers like to see samples of work presented in
> Word (where that's software that's used) rather than in PDF - so they can
> examine whether the document uses styles and the author has applied them
> intelligently.
>
> Howard
>
>
> On 2 May 2013 09:32, WongWord@xxxxxxxxx <wongword@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> **
>> In my experience when staff are offered Word training courses noone
>> enrols for the Word Basics course because "I know all that".
>>
>> Then they turn up at advanced with me and they can't keep up because they
>> don't know the basics such as Bob describes and more.
>>
>> This is an interesting situation for TW. It indicates the importance of
>> naming things correctly. Never call it Word Basic, choose something along
>> the lines of Word Refresher/Getting the most out of Word ...
>>
>> When we wanted staff to use a Word template we employed an expert to
>> design a really smart template which included, *for example*, all the
>> standard fixed wording, prompts for what content to include, auto para
>> numbering, links to a guide about content and had buttons in the menu bar
>> for the major styles. Only a few people struggled and they did eventually
>> catch on. Luckily senior managers would only review correctly formatted
>> documents. (These snr managers were not stupid. They weren't going to
>> struggle with badly set out documents which were harder to
>> understand.) This forced writers to get their formatting correct in the
>> first place or their work just wasn't reviewed and they would miss
>> deadlines.
>>
>> Irene
>>
>> *From:* Bob Trussler <bob.trussler@xxxxxxxxx>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 01, 2013 9:13 PM
>> *To:* austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> *Subject:* atw: Re: Discrimination
>>
>> Peter,
>> You could add
>> + lack of experience AND EDUCATION which leads to LOW productivity.
>>
>> Examples are
>> - not knowing that a word processor can generate a table of contents
>> - not knowing that a word processor works better when using styles
>> - not knowing that a word processor can generate a bulleted list (and a
>> two-column table is just a plain silly and clunky work-around)
>> - not knowing that a word processor can generate a numbered list.
>> - not knowing how to correct or work-around a stuffed up numbered list.
>> - not knowing how to set tabs
>> - not knowing how to set indents
>> - being able to do lots of things in Dreamweaver, but having no idea how
>> to edit HTML code
>>
>> Need I go on!
>> I am not making this up.
>>
>> Bob T
>>
>>
>> On 30 April 2013 11:08, Peter Martin <prescribal@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, April 28, 2013, David Crosswell wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 28/04/13 16:23, Christine Kent wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The reality for many on this list is that we are getting old, and it is
>>>> futile to ignore that age is a very significant factor in overall
>>>> discrimination patterns, at least as significant as gender or race.
>>>> However, those of us who know very well that discrimination is a major
>>>> factor in employment patterns never dare discuss it in a public forum
>>>> because none of us wants to admit that we may be having trouble getting
>>>> enough work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How do we counter whichever discrimination we are facing? In my case it is
>>>> age and to a lesser extent, gender. For all of us it is price, whether
>>>> that
>>>> is the employment of juniors as "good enough" or offshoring. With so much
>>>> of our work being outsourced to India, we are facing a very real issue.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is true, but it needs more analysis than just identification.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> With the `age' factor, there are three aspects in a potential
>>>> employer's mind:
>>>>
>>>> - staid inflexibility. Which may be a reality and quite often is.
>>>> Can an employer afford to pay out for the time to discover whether s/he
>>>> has
>>>> an exception to the rule on this occasion?
>>>> - experience. Which has to be paid for.
>>>> - over qualified. And is this person going to content to stay for
>>>> longer than an initial period, even if they have no other market option?
>>>>
>>>> Outsourcing is a market strategy to drop the local price.
>>>> Not all work can be. Especially not work that needs to be constantly
>>>> referenced with SMEs.
>>>> Not all of that can be done via the 'Net.
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> Of course one might also suggest that a probably-incompetent employer
>>> might also have three similar aspects (aka stereotyes) in mind for younger
>>> applicants in the "age" factor category
>>>
>>> + lack of attention span, likelihood of worktime lost through
>>> alcohol excesses and sickies. Can exceptions be detected?
>>> + lack of experience which leads to mistakes resulting in loss of
>>> productivity
>>> + under qualified. Is this person going to be employable without
>>> requiring excessive damage or supervision?
>>>
>>> Incompetent and dishonest managers and employers might use silly
>>> stereotypes in just about any direction... including race, sex and
>>> religious discrimination. They're incompetent because their criteria
>>> based on stereotyping are not merely inefficient as recruiting practice
>>> (let's leave aside morality for the present) but also risk some
>>> nasty consequences. The reality is, of course, that these silly
>>> stereotypes are most likely to be applied when work opportunities are
>>> shrinking.
>>>
>>> But the answer is not, as you appear to suggest, to find a way for
>>> people to pretend they're not black or for them to meekly just head off and
>>> find jobs "suitable" for black people. (s/black/aged s/aged/young)
>>>
>>> And having set aside the morality briefly, let's take it into account
>>> here. If employers and managers get benefits in their business from the
>>> rule of law (as they all do) they might consider a requirement to
>>> follow obligations under that system, like obeying the law.
>>>
>>> Might it not be slightly relevant in here somewhere that the practices
>>> you suggest are involved for employers are actually ILLEGAL?
>>>
>>> The laws are weak in application, as equality laws were in the world of
>>> the Alabamas. So the laws need to be strengthened. Governments,
>>> employers who bleat about baby boomers being a drag on the economy need to
>>> have it pointed out to them that failure to strengthen and enforce the
>>> law and failures to obey it are within their areas of responsibility.
>>>
>>> If they want us to keep off their welfare system and stop being a drain
>>> on superannuation funds, there's a simple answer: do what you say you
>>> have a responsibility to do: avoid discrimination, and allow us to work,
>>> raising the barriers that prevent us from doing it.
>>>
>>> No, stuff it! All these arguments that I should just go quietly to the
>>> back of the bus are unacceptable.
>>>
>>> -PeterM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bob Trussler
>>
>
>
--
*Jasmine Andrews
*Technical communication and training specialist
PO Box 599
<http://maps.google.com/maps?q=PO+Box+599+%2CNewtown%2CNSW+2042%2CAustralia&hl=en>Newtown,
NSW 2042 Australia
*Email:* jasminethetrainer@xxxxxxxxx
*http://au.linkedin.com/in/jasmineisisandrews*
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