I know phoenix recorded it, but do not know if he has tacview - or if it
works on CB server. But as he mentioned TAS my guess is its coming from
tacview. Most of my comments re positions are based on phoenix comments
after the sortie. ie I think cina was fairly close, the P38s when some
one called me to break were more or less in line astern as I closed up.
However I broke hard left and never made contact again (although I think
I saw when Talisman/phoenix were re-engaged far off to my 5 oclock). And
not sure just how close talisman/cina were. With us in line astern they
could have been pretty close, purely from Talisman AAR that they split
either side during the attack.
TTFN
Stickz
On 19/11/2019 14:38, Colin Pack (Redacted sender bart_56 for DMARC) wrote:
Have you got the tacview to these engagements?
Colin
Sent from my iPad
On 19 Nov 2019, at 01:53, tim foster (Redacted sender silverwings.stickz for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
We cant cover every situation, we gotta get one that mostly works reliably.
It was about 50seconds after I dropped (I was last but only marginally) when cina got destroyed. Problem is by then cina was almost with us as I understand it. Ideally in my mind he would have still been 500m behind the last of us and a little higher and fast. That way those bouncers would have either dropped down in front of escort guns and been seen doing it or they would have had to delay and drop down behind them. That would be worst case scenario, but with the escort pair already combat formed behind us (whereas bombers are still trying to regain it) to call a bounce on us and already mutually supporting each other they should be well positioned to see an attempted bounce on them. If the first attack is nullified, we got 3 P38s (optimistically including myself) to climb/reverse back to them. So as we drop bombs on the target, our escorts drop towards us as if they are making the attack on us.
Whereas if the escorts come down close with us, they have basically just become another bomber making a run as shown by cinas reported air speed. If he blacked out avoiding the bounce by pulling up, the two doras will bloody struggle not too (and you seemed to think one did). I hear the logic why the escorts split either side of the formation, but not sure it was for the best, normal combat spread they may have seen them coming and been able to engage together. But their actions did get us home. But much prefer to see them landing with us.
But by delaying them dropping down towards us, it may mean any enemy seeing flak or explosions may not see the escorts following and get themselves in a sandwich. The risk is the target flak switching to them, but sweeping fast and higher should get through. Of course, that kind a of delay following us out could be too much. Its not going to work if the escorts are too far back and someone drops between us, but if we are in P38s and given a (early) heads up should be able to make a passable attempt at staying alive for 5-10secs until cavalry arrives, then its 2 v4/5. But unless we have been spotted on ingress, it should mean our escorts have similar energy state to those enemies coming down and see them coming either between us or behind us all. And we got G suits to avoid first pass - every thing helps.
My IAS barely dropped below 310mph (not TAS) until I was nearly on the rhine running combat, 2850 about 52"MP but of course I was separated when someone called a break to me so did my own return. I guess it was a identity mistake because from your intial replay, it seems there was never anyone near me. From my log I landed 18minutes after my bomb drop. So yes, there are very few maps where staying in combat power would damage an engine. But you can eek the timer out by running under full rpm/full throttle and only lose a little.
By the way, there is new sherriff video, (boring,) but towards end he is close over that target when 2 P47s hit it. They exit over the hills, and are very very visible against the trees/forest even on youtube. So weaving round the terrain will only be partly effective on certain occasions. It is also difficult to fly combat spread whilst TFRing round the hills (however exhilerating it is).
Climb when escorts have the high ground and we climb to them.
TTFN
Stickz
On 18/11/2019 23:07, 56RAF_phoenix wrote:
As I said about the first strike, the two mistakes we made then were:
1. to turn after the target, slowing our exit;
2. enabling the enemy to cut the corner.
We learnt... on the second strike we kept going straight as fast as we could, but they still caught us.
What we didn't know was that two 190s were patrolling 8km SW of the target (the likeliest entry and exit route for unsophisticated attackers). But we did choose an unexpected approach direction and they were at 16,000 ft and didn't see us until after we dropped bombs.
However, we did choose our exit route in the most obvious direction (it coincided with the target line-up). Given the need to line up with the target, either our entry or exit would have been under the 190s. Bad luck for this target.
On closing on Cina, the lead 190 was doing 450 mph TAS, while Cina was doing 310 mph TAS. I think the only improvement here would have been if the 190s were on the wrong side of the target and we'd equalised energy during our exit. Cina was shot down as he zoomed up with the 190s following.
As a matter of course, after the bomb drop we should try and assess whether we're being followed.
The 190s never lost touch with the P-38s and remaining Tempest. The 190s were doing ~370 mph TAS and 56 had reduced throttle and speed to ~300 mph TAS.
/We should be less cautious about using combat power to escape and always assume we're being tracked./
/We should always consider a significant course change or battle climb (in P-38s) once well clear of the target - and maybe always after one of our number has been bounced./
Once the 190s engaged Talisman, I turned back and attacked a 190, gaining some minor hits. Talisman advised me to leave, so I climbed away and RTBed.
With hindsight, I might have done better to have stayed.
It was always going to be hard to escape from determined 190s/Doras, but we might have got better chances if we'd optimised our actions.
56RAF_phoenix
--
if you dont live life on the edge you are taking up too much space
