Have you got the tacview to these engagements?
Colin
Sent from my iPad
On 19 Nov 2019, at 01:53, tim foster (Redacted sender silverwings.stickz for
DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
We cant cover every situation, we gotta get one that mostly works reliably.
It was about 50seconds after I dropped (I was last but only marginally) when
cina got destroyed. Problem is by then cina was almost with us as I
understand it. Ideally in my mind he would have still been 500m behind the
last of us and a little higher and fast. That way those bouncers would have
either dropped down in front of escort guns and been seen doing it or they
would have had to delay and drop down behind them. That would be worst case
scenario, but with the escort pair already combat formed behind us (whereas
bombers are still trying to regain it) to call a bounce on us and already
mutually supporting each other they should be well positioned to see an
attempted bounce on them. If the first attack is nullified, we got 3 P38s
(optimistically including myself) to climb/reverse back to them. So as we
drop bombs on the target, our escorts drop towards us as if they are making
the attack on us.
Whereas if the escorts come down close with us, they have basically just
become another bomber making a run as shown by cinas reported air speed. If
he blacked out avoiding the bounce by pulling up, the two doras will bloody
struggle not too (and you seemed to think one did). I hear the logic why the
escorts split either side of the formation, but not sure it was for the best,
normal combat spread they may have seen them coming and been able to engage
together. But their actions did get us home. But much prefer to see them
landing with us.
But by delaying them dropping down towards us, it may mean any enemy seeing
flak or explosions may not see the escorts following and get themselves in a
sandwich. The risk is the target flak switching to them, but sweeping fast
and higher should get through. Of course, that kind a of delay following us
out could be too much. Its not going to work if the escorts are too far back
and someone drops between us, but if we are in P38s and given a (early) heads
up should be able to make a passable attempt at staying alive for 5-10secs
until cavalry arrives, then its 2 v4/5. But unless we have been spotted on
ingress, it should mean our escorts have similar energy state to those
enemies coming down and see them coming either between us or behind us all.
And we got G suits to avoid first pass - every thing helps.
My IAS barely dropped below 310mph (not TAS) until I was nearly on the rhine
running combat, 2850 about 52"MP but of course I was separated when someone
called a break to me so did my own return. I guess it was a identity mistake
because from your intial replay, it seems there was never anyone near me.
From my log I landed 18minutes after my bomb drop. So yes, there are very few
maps where staying in combat power would damage an engine. But you can eek
the timer out by running under full rpm/full throttle and only lose a little.
By the way, there is new sherriff video, (boring,) but towards end he is
close over that target when 2 P47s hit it. They exit over the hills, and are
very very visible against the trees/forest even on youtube. So weaving round
the terrain will only be partly effective on certain occasions. It is also
difficult to fly combat spread whilst TFRing round the hills (however
exhilerating it is).
Climb when escorts have the high ground and we climb to them.
TTFN
Stickz
On 18/11/2019 23:07, 56RAF_phoenix wrote:
As I said about the first strike, the two mistakes we made then were:
1. to turn after the target, slowing our exit;
2. enabling the enemy to cut the corner.
We learnt... on the second strike we kept going straight as fast as we
could, but they still caught us.
What we didn't know was that two 190s were patrolling 8km SW of the target
(the likeliest entry and exit route for unsophisticated attackers). But we
did choose an unexpected approach direction and they were at 16,000 ft and
didn't see us until after we dropped bombs.
However, we did choose our exit route in the most obvious direction (it
coincided with the target line-up). Given the need to line up with the
target, either our entry or exit would have been under the 190s. Bad luck
for this target.
On closing on Cina, the lead 190 was doing 450 mph TAS, while Cina was doing
310 mph TAS. I think the only improvement here would have been if the 190s
were on the wrong side of the target and we'd equalised energy during our
exit. Cina was shot down as he zoomed up with the 190s following.
As a matter of course, after the bomb drop we should try and assess whether
we're being followed.
The 190s never lost touch with the P-38s and remaining Tempest. The 190s
were doing ~370 mph TAS and 56 had reduced throttle and speed to ~300 mph
TAS.
We should be less cautious about using combat power to escape and always
assume we're being tracked.
We should always consider a significant course change or battle climb (in
P-38s) once well clear of the target - and maybe always after one of our
number has been bounced.
Once the 190s engaged Talisman, I turned back and attacked a 190, gaining
some minor hits. Talisman advised me to leave, so I climbed away and RTBed.
With hindsight, I might have done better to have stayed.
It was always going to be hard to escape from determined 190s/Doras, but we
might have got better chances if we'd optimised our actions.
56RAF_phoenix
--
if you dont live life on the edge you are taking up too much space
