[Wittrs] Re: Dennett's paradigm shift.
- From: "SWM" <SWMirsky@xxxxxxx>
- To: wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:28:45 -0000
--- In Wittrs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "BruceD" <blroadies@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Wittrs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "SWM" <SWMirsky@> wrote:
>
> > We stop looking for mind as entity
>
> This is found in William James 100 yrs ago. But for him, and others, a
> non-entity is not physical. And since the brain is an entity, Dennett
> takes a step backwards from James
>
Why? What makes you say THAT? Again the claim that the mind just is the brain
is not a claim that the mind is a physical thing but a feature (or features) of
a physical thing, in this case a physical process occurring in some brains at
some times. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?
> > easily explainable as a complex set of brain functionalities,
> > accomplished by a process-based system running in brains.
>
> What's explained? Philosophy is not asking for the physiological
> correlate, rather they are asking how can I conceive of the relationship
> between the physiology and the experience. Tell me that.
>
How we get so-called mental events in a physical milieu when what we associate
with the physical, at its most basic level, lacks a mental dimension (the
physical constituents of matter at all levels show no evidence of being
conscious, having minds).
> > It's just that now we can see how this can be accounted
> > for in terms of physical processes going on in brains.
>
> How is "this", the experience accounted for. This physical process could
> easily go on without any mental life.
>
Can the mental life easily go on (or go on at all) without the physical
process? If it can and you can make a case for it then you are a better dualist
than any I know, Gungha Din!
> > The idea is not to deny "subjective experience"
> > but to explain it in a way that makes it conceivable as an
> > outcome of physical processes.
>
> Right! So you imagine subjective experience is produced in the brain?
Kill the brain and what happens to subjective experience? Do you think the
answer to that question, which if you are a normal modern person with
contemporary knowledge of the world will be "it goes away", is to "imagine"
something? Even religionists agree it "goes away" though they think (or
certainly some religions teach) that it goes away AS AN entity, suddenly cut
loose from its moorings, goes away. Others of us, though, who see no reason to
conceive of consciousness as such an entity, mean something else by "goes
away", of course. So the question is what happens to the mind without the
brain. And if it "goes away" as a wheel stops turning rather than as if the
wheel suddenly cuts loose its turning and the turning flies off into another
dimension, then one is not a dualist. But if one thinks the turning and the
consciousness have some independent existence, then one is a dualist.
Your use of "imagine" introduces lots of new ambiguities here but, at bottom, I
think you would not say that the consciousness is a soul anymore than you would
want to say that the turning is a distinct entity from the wheel. And, if so,
you have to explain your use of "imagine".
> Like a wheel turns, the cells secrete experience. Be specific.
>
I have been. I said nothing about secretions, nor does the wheel's turning
analogize with a secretion.
> Descartes had the soul in a gland. How is this a shift from him, the
> father of Dualism?
>
> bruce
If you still have to ask that then you are STILL stuck in your ongoing
misunderstanding of the analogy of the wheel and the turning. I don't think
there can be any sense in answering your last question since it so completely
fails to reflect an understanding of anything I've been saying on this subject
though it does show your continued commitment to a dualist picture since you
cannot shake that no matter how you try apparently (though perhaps you really
aren't trying -- which seems more likely, i.e., I think you are so intent on
avoiding the picture of mind-brain dependence, at any cost, that you will latch
onto anything that floats in this storm of words and paddle furiously)!
SWM
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