I agree. My personal preference for VMware is development and prototyping. My performance experience with VMware -- 20% loss (I have noticed Ron quoted 2%). True, VMware environment is more forgiving, however it cannot supplement a sloppy system management -- nicely tuned physical box is the way to go. And again, as Ron had mentioned, patch management and application rollout tools are not a problem at all. There is another case when I would consider VMware for production -- remote sites (really remote). With VMware you will get a very well integrated solution with minimum of additional tools required for management. VMware can be used for hot spares (this is hypothetical, based on VMware whitepapers ;) Imagine you have a bunch of servers that you have imaged to VMware (VMware has a migration tool for physical hardware). I am talking about as many images as VMware box (single box or a few VMware boxes) can accommodate on it?s hard drives. And all these systems are in a suspended state. (For the argument sake, we are assuming the data is somewhere else ;) Now, let's say server ABC goes down -- you will be able to jumpstart this server in it?s VMware incarnation in under 2 minutes with a remotely triggered script, and users will hardly notice. And you can do it for every server that you emulated on VMware; assuming of course, majority (99%) of your servers are running. PS. Just a note: VMware availability numbers are excellent! ALEX >From: "Ron Oglesby" <roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >Reply-To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:34:11 -0600 > >Just a note on this=20 > >eDirectory and Zen works will be integrated into the farm as well so I >=3D can use Zen for the scripted build side of things. > >Why? If you are talking about the BASE Citrix OSs. I mean VMware can use >what they call "Golden masters" really images and its s simple file copy >to bring up a new VM server. Hardware is not an issue so its no big deal >at all (like when using real hardware you script installs to handle >that. > >That is unless you are talking of application deployment. Then it can be >a different story. Of course I generally see ZEN as a problem for app >deployment on terminal servers since it is geared toward a single user >desktop and not a multi user server. > >ANYWAY, My 2 cents, dump them if you want > >First Cent: Take a LONG HARD look from a cost benefit perspective if >VMware is going to save you any money here or if it is being done >because "we think it will save money and is cool".=20 >I have done two looks at this for large farms and on the primary silo >side of things it almost never adds up to save any money (remember >VMWare, makes use of all hardware for under utilized servers, or test >environment etc. When you run the servers at 90 or 100% and are >processor /memory bound you are still paying a 2-3% penalty using ESX >and adding a substantial cost in dollars per processor. If you are >having to factor in DR as in a real hot site then VMware still doesn't >factor in to save money since you have to buy and maintain that hardware >anyway. Its not like in that case you are porting to unknown hardware. > >Second Cent: The real problem with a huge farm (100s of thousands of >users would be the largest farm in the world, and Citrix ,at the current >FR level, doesn't want you to go too much beyond 400 servers in a farm). >Anyway the huge farm problem is NOT OS deployment or hardware its Too >many silos, Patch management, monitoring and application >deployment/updates.=20 >In the project we are working on now (900 server environment split >between datacenters) Automated installs are easy (for sure with HP and >RDP). It's the whole life patch management and application deployment.=20 >If App deployment is something you need to look at (and I think it is) >you should try out softricity and see what it gets you.=20 > >Just some thoughts. I am not against VMware I just hate to see people ad >another layer of complexity and cost just because they get an idea that >they have too for DR or any other reason. > >Ron Oglesby >Senior Technical Architect >Microsoft MVP, Windows Server=20 >=20 >RapidApp >Office 312.372.7188 >Mobile 815.325.7618 >email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx >=20 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Lyne [mailto:Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20 >Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 3:08 PM >To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing > >Well it sounds like ESX is the way to go then for this client. I will = >=3D >get hold of a copy and look at scripting options with it for deployment. > >I do have to scope this farm to expand, as they intend on making the =3D >farm available to possibly 100s of thousands of users globally in the = >=3D >long term. The farm will span Australia and NZ as well. > >eDirectory and Zen works will be integrated into the farm as well so I = >=3D >can use Zen for the scripted build side of things. > >Tony Lyne >Senior Systems Engineer=3D20 >Computerland Central=3D20 >P O Box 1470=3D20 >PALMERSTON NORTH >Telephone (+64) 06 3537300 >Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800 >Mobile (+64) 0274 720696 >E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz >CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D >information that is confidential and subject to privilege. If you are = >=3D >not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, =3D >dissemination, distribution or copying of this message or data is =3D >prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me >=3D >immediately and delete all material pertaining to this e-mail. Thank =3D >you. >=3DA0 > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20 >Sent: Monday, 23 February 2004 8:44 a.m. >To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing > > >On very similar hardware we have a client running four virtual machines >=3D >=3D3D >and >there is plenty of resources still available. It is going to depend = >=3D3D >entirely >on the load you require, but for non-resource intensive applications 10 >=3D >=3D3D >or >15 machines is quite possible. Keep in mind that you will not gain >performance as a whole, you will just have the ability to divide the >resource up into multiple servers. This is based on using ESX server, on >=3D >=3D3D >GSX >you should expect lower overall performance on the virtual machines. > >I see the benefit as being able to host multiple functions on the same >hardware. The customer we are working on this has a low Citrix user = >=3D3D >count, >but does not want to have to buy hardware for a dedicated data =3D3D >collector, >web server and other light duty functions unrelated to Citrix that they. >=3D >=3D3D >As >a result, they run two ESX servers, maintain a redundant Citrix farm = >=3D3D >with a >dedicated data collector, and, have resources available for other =3D3D >servers >that they would otherwise need to buy and dedicate hardware for. > >Regards, > >Steve Greenberg >Thin Client Computing >34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453 >Scottsdale, AZ 85262 >(602) 432-8649 >(602) 296-0411 fax=3D3D20 >steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = >=3D >=3D3D >Behalf >Of Tony Lyne >Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 1:04 PM >To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [THIN] VMWare Server Sizing > > >Guys, >=3D3D20 > >Im in the middle of designing a Citrix farm for a client and it seems = >=3D >=3D3D >the >VMWare subject has been thrashed around here quite a bit. But one thing >=3D >=3D3D >I >can find is the number is VMware sessions that should be run per server >before serious performance issues are hit. > >=3D3D20 > >The farm will be running Linux then Vmware on that which will be =3D3D >launching >multiple VMWare Win2k3 server sessions with MFXPa/e.=3D3D20 > >=3D3D20 > >If they will only be doing the basic work like MS Office and other =3D3D >office >applications, typically from experience how many VMware sessions would >people expect to get per server before they notices a performance hit? > >=3D3D20 > >The server kit will be DL360G3's with 4GB RAM and mirrored disks. > >=3D3D20 > >I was expecting to start with each server running 2 VMware sessions each >=3D >=3D3D >and >see how that goes. > >There will most likely be vertical application servers as well. > >=3D3D20 > >Tony Lyne > >Senior Systems Engineer=3D3D20 > >Computerland Central=3D3D20 > >P O Box 1470=3D3D20 > >PALMERSTON NORTH > >Telephone (+64) 06 3537300 > >Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800 > >Mobile (+64) 0274 720696 > >E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz =3D ><http://www.computerland.co.nz/>=3D3D20 > >CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D3D >information >that is confidential and subject to privilege. If you are not the =3D3D >intended >recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or >copying of this message or data is prohibited. If you have received this >e-mail in error, please notify me immediately and delete all material >pertaining to this e-mail. 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