[THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing

Ron,=20

For the large implementations you are discussing you probably will =
always
end up choosing the raw performance of dedicated servers over the
consolidation benefits of VMWare ESX. I believe that the vast majority =
of
Citrix implementations are pretty small though, i.e. 1-10 servers, and =
often
under-utilized from a hardware and raw performance point of view. For =
these
types of installations there are powerful benefits available from Vmware
that simply cannot be matched with conventional hardware servers.=20

On my last project, I created Windows 2000 images with all of the image
applications and registry settings, etc. that are needed. We used =
Softricity
and made the SoftGrid client part of the base install. To create a new
server instead of sysprep and Ghost, etc. we simply have a master VMWare
file that is renamed, booted and then Metaframe is installed. With a few
points and clicks a new servers is available and part of the farm. On =
two
hardware servers we can run a modest Citrix farm, with a dedicated data
collector/control server, and as many app servers as we choose. In =
addition,
the client is running a number of other light duty servers on the same
hardware. The customer keeps some hardware and backup disk images off =
site
and can bring up the entire farm in minutes after a complete data center
failure. (The network re-creation takes a few hours).

I agree that this model fails when large numbers of users and raw
performance is at a premium, however, I think there is a lot to be said =
for
adopting this approach and for moving forward with something that =
because it
is cool, makes sense and allows the client to move in a new direction!=20

Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
(602) 296-0411 fax=20
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx



-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
Behalf
Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 7:34 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing


Just a note on this=3D20
>eDirectory and Zen works will be integrated into the farm as well so I
=3D3D can use Zen for the scripted build side of things.

Why? If you are talking about the BASE Citrix OSs. I mean VMware can use
what they call "Golden masters" really images and its s simple file copy =
to
bring up a new VM server. Hardware is not an issue so its no big deal at =
all
(like when using real hardware you script installs to handle that.

That is unless you are talking of application deployment. Then it can be =
a
different story. Of course I generally see ZEN as a problem for app
deployment on terminal servers since it is geared toward a single user
desktop and not a multi user server.

ANYWAY, My 2 cents, dump them if you want

First Cent: Take a LONG HARD look from a cost benefit perspective if =
VMware
is going to save you any money here or if it is being done because "we =
think
it will save money and is cool".=3D20 I have done two looks at this for =
large
farms and on the primary silo side of things it almost never adds up to =
save
any money (remember VMWare, makes use of all hardware for under utilized
servers, or test environment etc. When you run the servers at 90 or 100% =
and
are processor /memory bound you are still paying a 2-3% penalty using =
ESX
and adding a substantial cost in dollars per processor.  If you are =
having
to factor in DR as in a real hot site then VMware still doesn't factor =
in to
save money since you have to buy and maintain that hardware anyway. Its =
not
like in that case you are porting to unknown hardware.

Second Cent: The real problem with a huge farm (100s of thousands of =
users
would be the largest farm in the world, and Citrix ,at the current FR =
level,
doesn't want you to go too much beyond 400 servers in a farm). Anyway =
the
huge farm problem is NOT OS deployment or hardware its Too many silos, =
Patch
management, monitoring and application deployment/updates.=3D20 In the =
project
we are working on now (900 server environment split between datacenters)
Automated installs are easy (for sure with HP and RDP). It's the whole =
life
patch management and application deployment.=3D20 If App deployment is
something you need to look at (and I think it is) you should try out
softricity and see what it gets you.=3D20

Just some thoughts. I am not against VMware I just hate to see people ad
another layer of complexity and cost just because they get an idea that =
they
have too for DR or any other reason.

Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
Microsoft MVP, Windows Server=3D20
=3D20
RapidApp
Office 312.372.7188
Mobile 815.325.7618
email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
=3D20

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Lyne [mailto:Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 3:08 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing

Well it sounds like ESX is the way to go then for this client. I will =
=3D =3D3D
get hold of a copy and look at scripting options with it for deployment.

I do have to scope this farm to expand, as they intend on making the =
=3D3D
farm available to possibly 100s of thousands of users globally in the =
=3D =3D3D
long term. The farm will span Australia and NZ as well.

eDirectory and Zen works will be integrated into the farm as well so I =
=3D =3D3D
can use Zen for the scripted build side of things.

Tony Lyne
Senior Systems Engineer=3D3D20
Computerland Central=3D3D20
P O Box 1470=3D3D20
PALMERSTON NORTH
Telephone (+64) 06 3537300
Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800
Mobile (+64) 0274 720696
E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz
CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D3D
information that is confidential and subject to privilege. If you are =
=3D =3D3D
not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, =3D3D
dissemination, distribution or copying of this message or data is =3D3D
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me =
=3D3D
immediately and delete all material pertaining to this e-mail. Thank =
=3D3D
you. =3D3DA0




-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D3D20
Sent: Monday, 23 February 2004 8:44 a.m.
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing


On very similar hardware we have a client running four virtual machines =
=3D3D
=3D3D3D and there is plenty of resources still available. It is going to
depend =3D =3D3D3D entirely on the load you require, but for =
non-resource
intensive applications 10 =3D3D =3D3D3D or 15 machines is quite =
possible. Keep
in mind that you will not gain performance as a whole, you will just =
have
the ability to divide the resource up into multiple servers. This is =
based
on using ESX server, on =3D3D =3D3D3D GSX you should expect lower =
overall
performance on the virtual machines.

I see the benefit as being able to host multiple functions on the same
hardware. The customer we are working on this has a low Citrix user =3D =
=3D3D3D
count, but does not want to have to buy hardware for a dedicated data =
=3D3D3D
collector, web server and other light duty functions unrelated to Citrix
that they. =3D3D =3D3D3D As a result, they run two ESX servers, maintain =
a
redundant Citrix farm =3D =3D3D3D with a dedicated data collector, and, =
have
resources available for other =3D3D3D servers that they would otherwise =
need
to buy and dedicate hardware for.

Regards,

Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
(602) 296-0411 fax=3D3D3D20
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx



-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
=3D =3D3D
=3D3D3D Behalf Of Tony Lyne
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 1:04 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] VMWare Server Sizing


Guys,
=3D3D3D20

Im in the middle of designing a Citrix farm for a client and it seems =
=3D =3D3D
=3D3D3D the VMWare subject has been thrashed around here quite a bit. =
But one
thing =3D3D =3D3D3D I can find is the number is VMware sessions that =
should be
run per server before serious performance issues are hit.

=3D3D3D20

The farm will be running Linux then Vmware on that which will be =3D3D3D
launching multiple VMWare Win2k3 server sessions with MFXPa/e.=3D3D3D20

=3D3D3D20

If they will only be doing the basic work like MS Office and other =
=3D3D3D
office applications, typically from experience how many VMware sessions
would people expect to get per server before they notices a performance =
hit?

=3D3D3D20

The server kit will be DL360G3's with 4GB RAM and mirrored disks.

=3D3D3D20

I was expecting to start with each server running 2 VMware sessions each =
=3D3D
=3D3D3D and see how that goes.

There will most likely be vertical application servers as well.

=3D3D3D20

Tony Lyne

Senior Systems Engineer=3D3D3D20

Computerland Central=3D3D3D20

P O Box 1470=3D3D3D20

PALMERSTON NORTH

Telephone (+64) 06 3537300

Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800

Mobile (+64) 0274 720696

E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz =3D3D
<http://www.computerland.co.nz/>=3D3D3D20

CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D3D3D
information that is confidential and subject to privilege. If you are =
not
the =3D3D3D intended recipient, you are notified that any use, =
dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message or data is prohibited. If you =
have
received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately and delete =
all
material pertaining to this e-mail. Thank you.

=3D3D3D20

=3D3D3D20

=3D3D3D20

=3D3D3D20


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