Mervyn, This is an interesting one as we routinely install far secondaries but are continually frustrated by drivers turning right and craning their necks to see the faintest glimmer of a secondary red signal - behind long cowls and louvres - which are intended for a conflicting approach. This, of course, is a big problem where there is a ped crossing facility on the exit from the junction - but no stop line - and yet, they still stop! Pedestrians then get confused and don't know whether or not to cross against a red man. I've not heard of close coupled secondaries except for the obvious reason you mentioned, I will monitor this thread with interest. Regards Peter Peter Jones Project Leader - Traffic Control Systems Phone: +44 (0) 151 934 4254 Fax: +44 (0) 151 922 4514 Mobile: 07788 100 584 Peter.Jones (AT) technical.sefton.gov.uk Sefton MBC - UTC 7th Floor Balliol House Balliol Road Bootle L20 3NJ Please see our web pages on traffic control in Sefton: http://www.sefton.gov.uk/content-2781 ----------------------------------------------------------- A message from the TCUG mailing list. For information about the list visit //www.freelists.org/webpage/tcug