To Jim and any others using ICX with Excel, I have a perl script that I wrote that will read the text files output from ICX and create a sorted, coallated text file that you can drop right into an excel spreadsheet. I used to use this method, also. Contact me directly if you're interested in this. Regards, Weston -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dan Bostan Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 8:30 AM To: james.f.peterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; billw@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: On a different note .... We also took the Excel approach when designing a very complex telco system. As for the SI tool, Hyperlynx may be a good choice (not as good as ICX or Spectraquest), as noted by Scott earlier. But relying on a spreadsheet, not Tau, for example, does not provide the best tool integration, which is reflected in development time, and potential technical issues. /dan --- "Peterson, James F (FL51)" <james.f.peterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > I probably should clear something up on our excel spreadsheet approach > : > the pcb trace delays in our excel spreadsheet are quantified by ICX, > so this approach stands up to a lot high speed issues (xtalk, settling > time, etc.). > The only thing the excel spreadsheet is doing is keeping track of > everything (it budgets trace delays before pcb design, and it tallies > the real delay (via ICX) after pcb design). > > Also, keep in mind we're talking board level timing (original > question), so it includes trace delays, chip delays, clk skews, etc. > for all interfaces. > Using ICX (or a similar tool) just gives you one component - a very > important component - but we still need everything else. > > Jp > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of > Bill Wurst > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:33 AM > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: On a different note .... > > > > As clock rates increase and timing margins shrink, > it seems to me that > crosstalk induced timing modulation is becoming more > of an issue, both on > ASICs and PCBs. This and the complexity of todays > designs will probably > force us to move away from Excel spreadsheets which > I, like many others, > haveused for timing analysis. What I mean by > crosstalk induced timing > modulation is this: Envision a victim net with with > one or more aggressors. > > At roughly this same time that the victim > transitions, the aggressor(s) > transition also. Depending on whether the > aggressors move in the same or > opposite directions, the timing on the victim will > either be advanced or > retarded. Admittedly, this variation is small (on > the order of the > transition time of the signals involved), but timing > margins today are often > of the same order or less. > > It would seem that tools like Mentor's ICX / Tau > combination are ideally > suited to analyze this situation on PCBs (IBM's > static timing tool, > Einstimer, has had this capability for a couple of > years now for ASICs). > Does anyone know if this capability exists in > Mentor's tools yet (Mentor's > salesmen told me this was coming a year ago) and if > so, does it work? Does > anyone have any experience with these tools to give > some feedback. > > Another tool that was supposed to be enhanced for > this capability is > SiAuditor [1]from SiSoft[2]. Does anyone have any > experience with this tool > to report - good, bad, or otherwise? > > Thanks, > -Bill > ====================== > Peterson, James F (FL51) wrote: > yep - I agree with you in general, regarding > home-grown tools. The excel > approach to board level timing is simple and elegant > - we dedicate a page to > device timing, a page to trace timing, and then a > page to each interface > analyzed. We've found that it's easy to understand > (you can past in timing > diagrams, show the equations, and add notes to help > understand each of the > interfaces) and it's nice to have everything in one > model. We've been using > it for around 4 years now and there are so many > positives that the EDA > vendortool that wants to compete will have a tough > sell. But that said, > thereare some out there that have some potential - I > believe Mentor's TAU is > one of them. I mentioned there are some weaknesses > to our approach. It's > cumbersome for us to break down a bus to the > individual signal level : when > we give a min/max it's at the bus level. the > challenge is, say on a hold > timeissue, that the signal whose trace has the > quickest settling time on the > bus, doesn't have the quickest Tco(min) at the chip, > so we're overly > conservative. It's cumbersome for our approach to > break this down, we can do > it but it becomes complicated, and harder to > understand and maintain. This > iswhere the EDA tools that I've seen are more > efficient. best regards, Jim > -----Original Message----- From: steve weir > [mailto:weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx[3]] > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:51 AM To: > james.f.peterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[4] > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[5] Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] > Re: On a different note > .... Jim, one of the values that a vendor tool > brings is that it doesn't > loaddown the organization with the task of > maintaining and training people > oncustom in-house tools. In larger organizations, > vendor tools even if > priceymay pay back easily in terms of the scarce > engineering resources that > they save from non-core tasks. OTOH, some amount of > in-house tools can > provide an edge in cost or productivity, so mileage > will definitely vary. > Regards, Steve. At 04:23 AM 9/24/2004 -0700, > Peterson, James F (FL51) wrote: > Todd, without going into too much detail, an excel > spreadsheet can be > awesomefor developing (allocating and budgeting > timing) and maintaining > (back-annotating with actual timing) a board-level > timing model (see my > earlier reply in archives). there are some > weaknesses in this approach that > an EDA vendor can fix by creating/selling a custom > tool, but I'm currently > developing one for a board that has DDR SDRAM, QDR > SRAM, and RapidIO with > LVDS, SSTL and HSTL data rates at 250MHz, and it > still works. best regards, > Jim Peterson Honeywell -----Original Message----- > From: > si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[6] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[7]]On > Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff (twesterh) Sent: Thursday, > September 23, 2004 4:17 > PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] > On a different note .... > What techniques are people using to combine the > results of static timing and > signal integrity analysis for closing timing at the > board/system level? This > is a question I've asked a few times before, usually > with mixed responses. > Because the choices for board-level static timing > tools are relatively few, > I'm curious as to which tools are used productively, > and how. Replies on and > off the list are welcome. Thanks, Todd. Todd > Westerhoff High Speed Design > Specialist Cisco Systems 1414 Massachusetts Ave - > Boxboro, MA - 01719 > email:twesterh@xxxxxxxxx[9] ph: 978-936-2149 > ============================================ "Always > do right. This will > gratify some people and astonish the rest." - Mark > Twain > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To > unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[10] with > 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer > your membership from a > web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list[11] For > help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[12] with 'help' in the > Subject field List FAQ > wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ[13] > Listtechnical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org[14] List > archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list[15] or > atour remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages[16] > Old(prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are > viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu[17] > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To > unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[18] === message truncated === _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu