If your T-line isn't exactly 50 ohms, you should expect reflections, and their associated periodicity. For the short line, I think the period is large enough that you're only seeing a single peak. If you carried the simulation out far enough, I believe you'd see troughs and peaks. For the long line, you're seeing both troughs and peaks. My calculations show that, for the short T-line (~0.4"), the troughs should have a period of about 781MHz (assuming 160ps/in Tp). For the long T-line, that period should be 7.81GHz. Below is a simple Hspice deck that demonstrates the effect on ideal T-lines. You can adjust Z0 for 35, 50, and 75 ohms and see the effect. The same effect appears on lossy T-lines, with the peaks and troughs added to the loss effects. Simulation of VNA of 1 & 10cm 75ohm trace .option INGOLD=3D1=20 .param vhi=3D2 .param tr =3D35p V_1_1cm N_1_1cm GND DC=3D0 AC 2 $ 0VDC, 2VAC (will get divided by 2 by source R) * 50ohm source R =20 R_SRC_1cm N_1_1cm N_port1_1cm R=3D50 * 35ohm, 1cm Transmission line Tline_1cm N_port1_1cm 0 N_port2_1cm 0 Z0=3D35 TD=3D'160p * 39.37' = L=3D.01 * Load Termination =3D 50ohms R_TERM_1cm N_port2_1cm GND R=3D50 V_1_10cm N_1_10cm GND DC=3D0 AC 2 $ 0VDC, 2VAC (will get divided by 2 = by source R) * 50ohm source R =20 R_SRC_10cm N_1_10cm N_port1_10cm R=3D50 * 35ohm, 10cm Transmission line Tline_10cm N_port1_10cm 0 N_port2_10cm 0 Z0=3D35 TD=3D'160p * 39.37' = L=3D.1 * Load Termination =3D 50ohms R_TERM_10cm N_port2_10cm GND R=3D50 =20 .AC Lin 800 30K 10G .print v(N_port1_1cm) v(N_port2_1cm) v(N_port1_10cm) v(N_port2_10cm) .end Jeff Loyer -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Papa November Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 9:40 AM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Dielectric constant for FR4 at above 1Ghz frequency Hi I am a newbie to SI. I have started learning HFSS recently. Here is my=20 problem; I tried to simulate a 2 trace transmission on a pcb. I created two models.=20 One is 10 cm long and the other is 1 cm long. All other dimensions are=20 identical. I am getting a S11 (dB) curve against frequency with bumps for the long line=20 but a continually increasing curve for the short line. Why is this=20 difference?, Which one is more accurate? Can anyone suggest a way to cascade=20 10 if the small model S parameters to compare it with the long line 0dB| | | **** **** | * * * * | * * * * | * * * * * | * * * * * | * * * * * | * * * | * |* This is for 10 cm line | ___________________________________________________________(f) 0 10 GHz 0dB| | | **** ************ | * | * | * | * | * |* This is for 1 cm line | ___________________________________________________________(f) 0 10 GHz Thanks in advance. PN _________________________________________________________________ Is there a gadget-lover on your gift list? MSN Shopping has lined up some=20 good bets! http://shopping.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: =20 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages=20 Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu