RE: Java versus Python

  • From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 06:36:42 -0400

Sorry about that but I actually have ran into people who believe that.

ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of black ares
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:38 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python

It was a joke:)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:45 AM
Subject: RE: Java versus Python


> Is not returning they just use it to up keep code..  Find me any brand new
> project using it.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of black ares
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 4:18 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>
> there is even a dotnet extension for cobol, so cobol forever is returning.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 6:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>
>
>> yes, I can see it now, COBOL++, forcing OO support into COBOL... ugh!!!
>> *smile*
>> --le
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:25 AM
>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>> You know, I think we should just all go back to Cobol and forget this
>> discussion.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>> Coale
>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 2:35 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>
>> You may not be against Java, but I sure am! (just thought I'd throw that
>> out there for the record)
>>
>> On 6/19/2011 11:03 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>>> Thanks. I'm not -against- Java, I was just trying to throw some valid
>>> reasons into the conversation. Most of the points against python were
>>> invalid and not true.
>>> On 6/19/2011 11:58 AM, black ares wrote:
>>>> my messages were written before your messages where you found these
>>>> asserts.
>>>> Until my messages you showed a very python oriented atitude and
>>>> against java and other like this for no matter what args.
>>>> But after I have seen your messages and I have understood that you
>>>> can admit some times that python is not good for all.
>>>> Very well you simply have proven that you are more than a begginer in
>>>> this area.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 5:09 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> >The problem here is not that Ken and his team had or had not a good
>>>>> planing session, but that Tilor aserts some things wich are not so
>>>>> real.
>>>>> What,
>>>>> 1) That python shouldn't be used as the core of a system on a box
>>>>> like the Icon with the specs it has.
>>>>> 2) That python may not be the choice for -everything-
>>>>> 3) That a -good- coder knows what language to use, and why?
>>>>> What is "not so real," about that?
>>>>> On 6/19/2011 1:59 AM, black ares wrote:
>>>>>> Sure, but this don't minimise the drawbacks of python.
>>>>>> And some things you discover after you've implemented part of the
>>>>>> real system, when you realy put to work that language.
>>>>>> The problem here is not that Ken and his team had or had not a good
>>>>>> planing session, but that Tilor aserts some things wich are not so
>>>>>> real.
>>>>>> I agree that in a good planing session you might see how bad python
>>>>>> works and choose another technology for a "performance critical"
>>>>>> software.
>>>>>> But sometimes the truth is hidden and you get excited because of
>>>>>> the enthusiasm of the comunity around a language and you decide to
>>>>>> give a try.
>>>>>> Hearing Tiller I now might decide to do the next fifa 2012 in
>>>>>> python because it is better than c++ or other language, I will get
>>>>>> some productivity increase and you know, who want not to deliver
>>>>>> earlier.
>>>>>> Lucky me that I've tried some "open source" "free" languages and I
>>>>>> decided that most of them are poorly implemented, targeted only to
>>>>>> simple tasks like showing infos on a little html webpage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Coale"
>>>>>> <ccoale427@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:05 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please don't say you "broke" Python, as you did not. What you mean
>>>>>>> to say is that your development team broke your project. I'm
>>>>>>> unsure if you are referring to the execution speed of Python or
>>>>>>> the development time it took you to create applications; if you
>>>>>>> are referring to the former, then I must say that you (and/or your
>>>>>>> development team) did poor project planning. Did you not know that
>>>>>>> Python tends to be an interpreted language? That's something to
>>>>>>> consider when you are developing a performance-critical application.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the indentation issue -- why was this not considered before
>>>>>>> the project started? Many people have no problems with the
>>>>>>> indentations, though, admittedly, some do. This should have been
>>>>>>> one of the things to consider during the planning stage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/18/2011 2:42 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sina I have told Tylor that I will not respond to anything he
>>>>>>>> posts so this
>>>>>>>> is pushing it to answer your post here but yes I have went as far
>>>>>>>> as python
>>>>>>>> can go and it broke.  I don't like mentioning it because python
>>>>>>>> is a great
>>>>>>>> language for many things. but yes our rather large python project
>>>>>>>> which is
>>>>>>>> pretty much an accessible front end for Linux, word processor,
>>>>>>>> web browser,
>>>>>>>> media player, radio tuner, book reader, twitter application, rss
>>>>>>>> reader,
>>>>>>>> email, all wrote in python Just got to the point where python was
>>>>>>>> slowing
>>>>>>>> things down even know the major lifting was done with c++
>>>>>>>> modules.  So while
>>>>>>>> we could crank out more and more apps they got slower and
>>>>>>>> slower.  So yes we
>>>>>>>> took python where we thought it could go and it broke.  I already
>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>> once where a block of code looked right but was not for example
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> like this
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if expression :
>>>>>>>>     do something
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    do something
>>>>>>>>    do something
>>>>>>>>    do something
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now that looks right if you intended the whole 4 lines to be in
>>>>>>>> the if
>>>>>>>> statement but if you were blocking the three lines and they took 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> indentation which some editors do you might not notice you had it
>>>>>>>> at the
>>>>>>>> same level as a blind coder.  This happened actually to a sighted
>>>>>>>> coder and
>>>>>>>> the code was in for a long time and I mean years before it was
>>>>>>>> finally
>>>>>>>> found.  Luckily it was not that important a bit of code but it
>>>>>>>> took a blind
>>>>>>>> guy and some pain staking looking to find the problem.  Granted
>>>>>>>> this don't
>>>>>>>> happen a lot but it does happen more than it does in languages
>>>>>>>> that use true
>>>>>>>> blocks of code.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the typing of the language don't get me started you don't
>>>>>>>> know how
>>>>>>>> many times I  and others have pushed stuff from the web into a
>>>>>>>> sqlite3 data
>>>>>>>> base and taken it out and got nothing like we expected because of
>>>>>>>> unicode
>>>>>>>> and Ascii.  I still like python for quick stuff but give me a
>>>>>>>> typed language
>>>>>>>> any day.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina
>>>>>>>> Bahram
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:39 PM
>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have, as has Ken more than me, and both of us have experienced 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> complete misery that is the lack of proper typing in
>>>>>>>> multiperson development teams.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Out of curiosity, have you? been in a multiple person development
>>>>>>>> team, I
>>>>>>>> mean, so that you can back up how well Python works?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>> Sina
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Littlefield,
>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:48 AM
>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you coded in python frequently enough to be able to back up 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> statement that coding in Python dies after big projects? I've
>>>>>>>> added to
>>>>>>>> some python projects and you can still code just as fast.
>>>>>>>> On 6/18/2011 6:45 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>>> One reason we chose Java for BrailleBlaster is SWT. It really
>>>>>>>>> works as a
>>>>>>>>> cross-platform GUI builder. Once you get into a complex project 
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> advantages of being able to develop something quickly in Python
>>>>>>>>> are much
>>>>>>>>> less.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 03:22:52PM +0300, black ares wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In fact it isn't a matter of preference.
>>>>>>>>>> Best trained profesionals in this area choose the platform and
>>>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>>>> best tailored to the project needs.
>>>>>>>>>> So If I have a project that I can do better and quick in python
>>>>>>>>>> than I
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> choose that langgage.
>>>>>>>>>> If options are better in java I will choose it.
>>>>>>>>>> Depends very much on the project requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "David Tseng"<davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:15 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I personally find arguments about programming languages much
>>>>>>>>>>> analogous
>>>>>>>>>>> to those seen in politics.  Both sides have great points but
>>>>>>>>>>> tend to
>>>>>>>>>>> drive one another towards opposite extremes.  Some camps are
>>>>>>>>>>> die hard
>>>>>>>>>>> dynamic language practitioners while others stick to strongly
>>>>>>>>>>> typed
>>>>>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the
>>>>>>>>>>> battle
>>>>>>>>>>> historically.  Most of the industry writes in C-styled
>>>>>>>>>>> languages like
>>>>>>>>>>> C/C++, java, etc.  Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.
>>>>>>>>>>> Python,
>>>>>>>>>>> as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to
>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>>> code, is still largely a wrapper on C.  For those who want
>>>>>>>>>>> absolute
>>>>>>>>>>> performance, it's considered still an extra level of indirection
>>>>>>>>>>> that's not worth the productivity gain.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I love python and its free-form style and the amount of
>>>>>>>>>>> progress you
>>>>>>>>>>> can make using it.  Python excels at the rinse and repeat
>>>>>>>>>>> (compile,
>>>>>>>>>>> run, fix) style of coding.  The few seconds you need to compile 
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in
>>>>>>>>>>> python.
>>>>>>>>>>> You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java,
>>>>>>>>>>> but can
>>>>>>>>>>> independently mix in functional aspects if you wish.  You can
>>>>>>>>>>> just as
>>>>>>>>>>> easily go OO if you want as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most
>>>>>>>>>>>> situations. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> would probably give up if the only option were php, since I
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy
>>>>>>>>>>>> enough, but I
>>>>>>>>>>>> agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's ease of
>>>>>>>>>>>> use and
>>>>>>>>>>>> readability, plus you can create executables with it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> something that
>>>>>>>>>>>> is difficult in java. Some people don't like that python is
>>>>>>>>>>>> loosely
>>>>>>>>>>>> typed, but I prefer saying:
>>>>>>>>>>>> name=raw_input("Enter your name: ")
>>>>>>>>>>>> to, if memory serves:
>>>>>>>>>>>> name=new String();
>>>>>>>>>>>> in=new InputReader();
>>>>>>>>>>>> name=in.readLine();
>>>>>>>>>>>> or something along those lines.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used both. I really like python because it comes on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> most *nix
>>>>>>>>>>>>> systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
>>>>>>>> versatility.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me. That and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they seem to have some serious naming convention issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Python.
>>>>>>>> Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx makes a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot more
>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it is just as powerful, if not more. A command-line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> build system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like ant can take most of the hassle out of working with Java
>>>>>>>> classes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eclipse
>>>>>>>> SWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Apache Ant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my blog:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>>>>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Ty
>>>>> my website:
>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>> my blog:
>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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