Hi, You know, I think we should just all go back to Cobol and forget this discussion. Jim -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher Coale Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 2:35 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Java versus Python You may not be against Java, but I sure am! (just thought I'd throw that out there for the record) On 6/19/2011 11:03 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Thanks. I'm not -against- Java, I was just trying to throw some valid > reasons into the conversation. Most of the points against python were > invalid and not true. > On 6/19/2011 11:58 AM, black ares wrote: >> my messages were written before your messages where you found these >> asserts. >> Until my messages you showed a very python oriented atitude and >> against java and other like this for no matter what args. >> But after I have seen your messages and I have understood that you >> can admit some times that python is not good for all. >> Very well you simply have proven that you are more than a begginer in >> this area. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" >> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 5:09 PM >> Subject: Re: Java versus Python >> >> >>> >The problem here is not that Ken and his team had or had not a good >>> planing session, but that Tilor aserts some things wich are not so >>> real. >>> What, >>> 1) That python shouldn't be used as the core of a system on a box >>> like the Icon with the specs it has. >>> 2) That python may not be the choice for -everything- >>> 3) That a -good- coder knows what language to use, and why? >>> What is "not so real," about that? >>> On 6/19/2011 1:59 AM, black ares wrote: >>>> Sure, but this don't minimise the drawbacks of python. >>>> And some things you discover after you've implemented part of the >>>> real system, when you realy put to work that language. >>>> The problem here is not that Ken and his team had or had not a good >>>> planing session, but that Tilor aserts some things wich are not so >>>> real. >>>> I agree that in a good planing session you might see how bad python >>>> works and choose another technology for a "performance critical" >>>> software. >>>> But sometimes the truth is hidden and you get excited because of >>>> the enthusiasm of the comunity around a language and you decide to >>>> give a try. >>>> Hearing Tiller I now might decide to do the next fifa 2012 in >>>> python because it is better than c++ or other language, I will get >>>> some productivity increase and you know, who want not to deliver >>>> earlier. >>>> Lucky me that I've tried some "open source" "free" languages and I >>>> decided that most of them are poorly implemented, targeted only to >>>> simple tasks like showing infos on a little html webpage. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Coale" >>>> <ccoale427@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:05 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python >>>> >>>> >>>>> Please don't say you "broke" Python, as you did not. What you mean >>>>> to say is that your development team broke your project. I'm >>>>> unsure if you are referring to the execution speed of Python or >>>>> the development time it took you to create applications; if you >>>>> are referring to the former, then I must say that you (and/or your >>>>> development team) did poor project planning. Did you not know that >>>>> Python tends to be an interpreted language? That's something to >>>>> consider when you are developing a performance-critical application. >>>>> >>>>> As for the indentation issue -- why was this not considered before >>>>> the project started? Many people have no problems with the >>>>> indentations, though, admittedly, some do. This should have been >>>>> one of the things to consider during the planning stage. >>>>> >>>>> On 6/18/2011 2:42 PM, Ken Perry wrote: >>>>>> Sina I have told Tylor that I will not respond to anything he >>>>>> posts so this >>>>>> is pushing it to answer your post here but yes I have went as far >>>>>> as python >>>>>> can go and it broke. I don't like mentioning it because python >>>>>> is a great >>>>>> language for many things. but yes our rather large python project >>>>>> which is >>>>>> pretty much an accessible front end for Linux, word processor, >>>>>> web browser, >>>>>> media player, radio tuner, book reader, twitter application, rss >>>>>> reader, >>>>>> email, all wrote in python Just got to the point where python was >>>>>> slowing >>>>>> things down even know the major lifting was done with c++ >>>>>> modules. So while >>>>>> we could crank out more and more apps they got slower and >>>>>> slower. So yes we >>>>>> took python where we thought it could go and it broke. I already >>>>>> mentioned >>>>>> once where a block of code looked right but was not for example >>>>>> something >>>>>> like this >>>>>> >>>>>> if expression : >>>>>> do something >>>>>> >>>>>> do something >>>>>> do something >>>>>> do something >>>>>> >>>>>> Now that looks right if you intended the whole 4 lines to be in >>>>>> the if >>>>>> statement but if you were blocking the three lines and they took the >>>>>> indentation which some editors do you might not notice you had it >>>>>> at the >>>>>> same level as a blind coder. This happened actually to a sighted >>>>>> coder and >>>>>> the code was in for a long time and I mean years before it was >>>>>> finally >>>>>> found. Luckily it was not that important a bit of code but it >>>>>> took a blind >>>>>> guy and some pain staking looking to find the problem. Granted >>>>>> this don't >>>>>> happen a lot but it does happen more than it does in languages >>>>>> that use true >>>>>> blocks of code. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for the typing of the language don't get me started you don't >>>>>> know how >>>>>> many times I and others have pushed stuff from the web into a >>>>>> sqlite3 data >>>>>> base and taken it out and got nothing like we expected because of >>>>>> unicode >>>>>> and Ascii. I still like python for quick stuff but give me a >>>>>> typed language >>>>>> any day. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ken >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina >>>>>> Bahram >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:39 PM >>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python >>>>>> >>>>>> I have, as has Ken more than me, and both of us have experienced the >>>>>> complete misery that is the lack of proper typing in >>>>>> multiperson development teams. >>>>>> >>>>>> Out of curiosity, have you? been in a multiple person development >>>>>> team, I >>>>>> mean, so that you can back up how well Python works? >>>>>> >>>>>> Take care, >>>>>> Sina >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Littlefield, >>>>>> Tyler >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:48 AM >>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you coded in python frequently enough to be able to back up the >>>>>> statement that coding in Python dies after big projects? I've >>>>>> added to >>>>>> some python projects and you can still code just as fast. >>>>>> On 6/18/2011 6:45 AM, John J. Boyer wrote: >>>>>>> One reason we chose Java for BrailleBlaster is SWT. It really >>>>>>> works as a >>>>>>> cross-platform GUI builder. Once you get into a complex project the >>>>>>> advantages of being able to develop something quickly in Python >>>>>>> are much >>>>>>> less. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 03:22:52PM +0300, black ares wrote: >>>>>>>> In fact it isn't a matter of preference. >>>>>>>> Best trained profesionals in this area choose the platform and >>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>> best tailored to the project needs. >>>>>>>> So If I have a project that I can do better and quick in python >>>>>>>> than I >>>>>> will >>>>>>>> choose that langgage. >>>>>>>> If options are better in java I will choose it. >>>>>>>> Depends very much on the project requirements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "David Tseng"<davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:15 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I personally find arguments about programming languages much >>>>>>>>> analogous >>>>>>>>> to those seen in politics. Both sides have great points but >>>>>>>>> tend to >>>>>>>>> drive one another towards opposite extremes. Some camps are >>>>>>>>> die hard >>>>>>>>> dynamic language practitioners while others stick to strongly >>>>>>>>> typed >>>>>>>>> code. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the >>>>>>>>> battle >>>>>>>>> historically. Most of the industry writes in C-styled >>>>>>>>> languages like >>>>>>>>> C/C++, java, etc. Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost. >>>>>>>>> Python, >>>>>>>>> as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to >>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>> code, is still largely a wrapper on C. For those who want >>>>>>>>> absolute >>>>>>>>> performance, it's considered still an extra level of indirection >>>>>>>>> that's not worth the productivity gain. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I love python and its free-form style and the amount of >>>>>>>>> progress you >>>>>>>>> can make using it. Python excels at the rinse and repeat >>>>>>>>> (compile, >>>>>>>>> run, fix) style of coding. The few seconds you need to compile a >>>>>>>>> C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in >>>>>>>>> python. >>>>>>>>> You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java, >>>>>>>>> but can >>>>>>>>> independently mix in functional aspects if you wish. You can >>>>>>>>> just as >>>>>>>>> easily go OO if you want as well. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most >>>>>>>>>> situations. I >>>>>>>>>> would probably give up if the only option were php, since I >>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>> hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy >>>>>>>>>> enough, but I >>>>>>>>>> agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's ease of >>>>>>>>>> use and >>>>>>>>>> readability, plus you can create executables with it, >>>>>>>>>> something that >>>>>>>>>> is difficult in java. Some people don't like that python is >>>>>>>>>> loosely >>>>>>>>>> typed, but I prefer saying: >>>>>>>>>> name=raw_input("Enter your name: ") >>>>>>>>>> to, if memory serves: >>>>>>>>>> name=new String(); >>>>>>>>>> in=new InputReader(); >>>>>>>>>> name=in.readLine(); >>>>>>>>>> or something along those lines. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I've used both. I really like python because it comes on >>>>>>>>>>> most *nix >>>>>>>>>>> systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and >>>>>> versatility. >>>>>>>>>>> Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to >>>>>>>>>>> me. That and >>>>>>>>>>> they seem to have some serious naming convention issues. >>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes >>>>>>>>>>> things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes >>>>>>>>>>> more sense. >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about >>>>>>>>>>>> Python. >>>>>> Why >>>>>>>>>>>> is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx makes a >>>>>>>>>>>> lot more >>>>>> sense >>>>>>>>>>>> and it is just as powerful, if not more. A command-line >>>>>>>>>>>> build system >>>>>>>>>>>> like ant can take most of the hassle out of working with Java >>>>>> classes. >>>>>>>>>>>> personally, I prefer this to Eclipse. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6, >>>>>>>>>>>> Eclipse >>>>>> SWT >>>>>>>>>>>> and Apache Ant. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>> my website: >>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>> my blog: >>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog >>>>>>>>>>> skype: st8amnd127 >>>>>>>>>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Have a great day, >>>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website) >>>>>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap >>>>>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>> >>>> >>>> __________ >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> my website: >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> my blog: >>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog >>> skype: st8amnd127 >>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features! >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> > > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or affiliates. __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind