Came across this looking laser safety information. Had to share it. It's a
parody of the Dumb Ways to Die Metro Train video from Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6ejwtuOf-0
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 10:55 AM, William Finch <psychogilgamesh@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I do have some that lack labels. One is a blue laser that has no astronomy
purpose (it isn't bright enough).
As for the public.I've gotten some feedback recently due to someone being
arrested at our local airport. Normally people just ask "is that like the
one someone got arrested for?" I reply "Yes but it's fine as long as I
don't aim it at a plane." They normally mention me making sure it doesn't
get our of my hands. I then show them that I've got it tethered to me.They
then smile and say "Good".
I honestly think it's the combo of being near the airport at dbg and
someone recently getting arrested. Kinda like gun sales going up along with
gun laws being passed, after a shooting.
I even had someone ask if I was the guy that was arrested. I replied "Nope
but anyone that''s dumb enough to aim this at a plane deserves to be in
jail for a very long time.
In case anyone wants to know what I use to tether my laser to me, it's
http://amzn.to/1ReyyL8 It has saved my laser from rubby hands of a drunk
guy and from a fall.
On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 9:03 PM, Eric Steinberg <eric@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Pete –
I waited a while to respond to this - I find that you have me scratching
my head. To wit: what exactly are you trying to accomplish so passionately
here? Can you clarify? The possibilities that occur to me are:
1. Ban the use of lasers at PAS events. If that’s the case, come
out and say it, bring it up at a MOMS and we will vote on it.
2. Limit laser use at PAS events to certifiable 5mw units. This is
tantamount to #1 since true 5mw lasers are not visible in town and barely
so at dark sky sites.
3. I don’t know…
To respond more specifically, I’ll start with some basic civics:
1. Congress makes laws, not the executive branch. There are no
such things as FDA or OSHA “laws”. They are regulatory agencies.
2. In the case of the FDA, the regulation is of sellers and
manufacturers, not of individuals. Once you have a product in your hands
it’s out of their purview. There is no documented case of a laser or any
other product I can find being confiscated from an individual because of an
FDA compliance issue. Recalls, yes, but that’s up to the person.
3. OSHA? C’mon Pete – as if. PAS star parties are in no way shape
or manner an OSHA regulated workplace, and thank goodness for that. If
they were, we’d have been shut down a long time ago on everything from
layouts to lighting to ladders and more, never mind lasers.
Regarding some of the items below:
“Most of the lasers don’t even have labels on their barrels”, I’ve never
seen this, but if it’s so, they’re likely to have worn off or been taken
off by the user. Do you have some examples?
“they are being used for pointing or for a demonstration”, I’m pretty
certain that astronomical use is an excepted category, but more
importantly, it’s about the seller, not the user. So it doesn’t matter.
See above.
given all of the press about people pointing lasers at planes and pilots
being temporarily or permanently blinded. There is not all that much
press unless you go to a site that aggregates such information, but also
there is no documented case of any pilot being blinded by a laser. Being
distracted, yes, annoyed, yes, losing night vision or having bad
afterimages for a while yes, but blinded*, no. I’m not saying it’s not
dangerous: as a pilot I can tell you it is very much so, but let’s not
exaggerate the results.
Almost all arrests that have been made have involved helicopters at low
altitude being illuminated by imbeciles. By the way, as William pointed
out earlier, at 25 or more degrees above the horizon, it’s physically
impossible to shine a laser into the cockpit of an airplane. In fact, an
airliner in cruise flight would probably not even detect being
illuminated. For this reason, those airplanes that have been targeted have
all been in the immediate airport vicinity, i.e. right after takeoff or on
final. PAS people are not pointing at aircraft and if someone were to,
they would I hope, be expelled from the club immediately.
I’ve already seen members of the public challenge our use. I’ve never
experienced this at any of the many star parties I’ve worked, nor have I
ever heard this from other club members. Do you have specific
documentation of the complaint, date, event, circumstances, PAS members
involved, etc?
* OK, there was an incident in the UK, but authorities concluded that the
laser involved was a military, weapons-grade device, not a small handheld
one.
*From:* pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Peter Turner
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 4:24 PM
*To:* pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Eric,
I agree that the labels aren’t always accurate. Most of the lasers don’t
even have labels on their barrels, which is where they are required to be.
More importantly, it’s thought that 75-90% of all green lasers fail either
the visual (5mW) or infrared (2.5 mW) limits when actually tested. More
fail the infrared limit because most laser manufacturers don’t try and
limit infrared emissions. The fact is that we (PAS) are pointing out the
location of sky objects to the public. Although possibly scientific in
nature; they are being used for pointing or for a demonstration; therefore
they must be Class IIIa or less. “Scientific” is a nice adjective but
doesn’t seem to mean much when talking about these laws. We can argue and
interpret about it all we want. That’s not going to change the laws.
I like using lasers as it makes it easier for people to see what we are
showing them. I also like getting help when my Goto gets ornery and
someone points out the location. However, given all of the press about
people pointing lasers at planes and pilots being temporarily or
permanently blinded, I have tried to educate myself on the topic. Bottom
line, it’s not just about using lasers safely. You can be safe and
cautious in your use of a laser and still break the law.
Also, it seems that not just FDA laws but also OSHA laws cover lasers.
OSHA has jurisdiction over workplace safety and specifically regulates
laser exposure. Since many of our star parties are paid, they may fall
under OSHA. The employer (PAS? school? DBG?) is supposed to provide safety
glasses of optical density 5 if up to a 10mW laser is used. As the laser
increases in power, the employer is supposed to provide glasses of higher
optical density. It ought to be fun wearing optical density 5 or 6
eyeglasses or goggles and trying to see a DSO. Also the laser user must
stand at least 2.5 meters from anyone else. Crowd control may become
difficult.
Whether or not any public official may choose to challenge our use of
lasers, I’ve already seen members of the public challenge our use.
*Pete Turner*
MaidPro Phoenix-North – voted Best of Phoenix Magazine
19235 N Cave Creek Rd. Suite 106, Phoenix, AZ
*E:* peteturner@xxxxxxxxxxx *P: *602-923-7900 *W: *
maidpro.com/phoenix-north <http://www.maidpro.com/phoenix-north>
*Face
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/MaidPro-Phoenix-North/1797230277168150?fref=ts>Book:
*facebook.com/maidprophoenix *Twitter:* twitter.com/maidprophoenix
*From:* pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
*On Behalf Of *Eric Steinberg
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 1:31 PM
*To:* pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
I believe we can make a strong case for our use being scientific in
nature, especially since 5mw lasers don’t work for us. I am also willing
to bet that if your 5mw laser is wowing people at star parties, a careful
measurement will show it to be of much higher power. The labelling of
these devices rather “approximate” to say the least. The main point is to
be careful.
*From:* pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
*On Behalf Of *Peter Turner
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 1:14 PM
*To:* pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Eric,
It’s not just about labelling or use. Any laser over 5mW must not only be
labeled as a Class IIIb or above laser (higher letters are considered more
powerful). It must also have a key switch on it and must have a connector
for a remote interlock. And, it must not be used for alignment, leveling,
surveying or demonstration. Given how we use lasers, it’s hard to see how
these regulations don’t apply.
The FDA has codified this in in CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11 (too long to be
included, however here are the links:
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1040.10
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1040.11
). That’s because they are classified as dangerous with nanosecond or above
exposure. The only class that specifically mentions binoculars, telescopes
or astronomy is a Class I laser which is the least powerful.
Below is a summary from the FDA about Laser classes, particularly class
IIIa and IIIb lasers:
*How are laser products classified?*
Lasers are generally classified according to the hazard posed by the
amount and type of light they emit. Hazard classes range from Class I to IV
with Class I lasers being non-hazardous and Class IV lasers being the most
hazardous.
· Class I products include laser printers and CD players where
the laser radiation is usually contained within the product. Products
exceeding Class I permit access to some amount of laser radiation.
· Class II and IIa products include bar code scanners.
· Class IIIa products include laser pointers.
· Class IIIb and IV products include laser light shows,
industrial lasers, research lasers.
Does FDA have a mandatory limit on the power emitted by laser pointers?
Yes. Laser products promoted for pointing and demonstration purposes are
limited to hazard Class IIIa by FDA regulation.
21 CFR 1040.11(b) and 1040.11(c), limit surveying, leveling, and
alignment, and demonstration laser products to Class IIIa. This means that
pointers are limited to 5 milliwatts output power in the visible wavelength
range from 400 to 710 nanometers. There are also limits for any invisible
wavelengths and for short pulses. Pointers may not exceed the accessible
emission limits of CDRH Class IIIa or IEC1
<http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationEmittingProductsandProcedures/HomeBusinessandEntertainment/LaserProductsandInstruments/ucm116373.htm#f1>
Class 3R.
Are Class IIIa laser pointers dangerous?
Class IIIa or IEC Class 3R lasers can be dangerous. Class IIIa lasers can
cause temporary visual effects such as flash blinding, which could distract
or startle the person exposed. The risk of injury is very small when Class
IIIa pointers are used responsibly because natural body motion of a person
holding the pointer or motion of a person who might be exposed makes it
difficult to expose the eyes for a long period of time. People also have a
natural aversion to bright lights and are likely to close their eyes and
turn their heads if exposed.
What are class IIIb lasers and are they dangerous?
Lasers that emit between 5mW and 500mW output power are in Class IIIb or
IEC Class 3B. Class IIIb lasers cannot legally be promoted as laser
pointers or demonstration laser products. Product labels and user
instructions must describe the hazard classification of the product and its
output characteristics.
With any laser product, the potential for injury depends both on the
product itself and how the product is used. Higher powered Class IIIb or
IEC Class 3B lasers are dangerous and can cause either temporary visual
effects or an eye injury.
What is the problem with more powerful Class IIIb lasers being promoted
and sold as pointers?
Class IIIb hand-held lasers are too dangerous for use as pointers or
amusement articles. Furthermore, promotion of Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B
products for pointing or amusement violates FDA requirements and United
States law. Manufacturers of such products may be required to repair,
replace, or refund the purchase price of violative products distributed in
the U.S. These products are also subject to detention and seizure by the
U.S. Customs and Border Protection when imported.
What is the problem with more powerful Class IIIb lasers being promoted
and sold as pointers?
Class IIIb hand-held lasers are too dangerous for use as pointers or
amusement articles. Furthermore, promotion of Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B
products for pointing or amusement violates FDA requirements and United
States law. Manufacturers of such products may be required to repair,
replace, or refund the purchase price of violative products distributed in
the U.S. These products are also subject to detention and seizure by the
U.S. Customs and Border Protection when imported.
Irresponsible use of more powerful laser pointers poses a significant
risk of injury to the people exposed. Persons who misuse or irresponsibly
use lasers are open to personal liability and prosecution.
What are the FDA requirements for Class IIIa and IIIb laser systems?
The FDA standard 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11) requires a warning label on
Class IIIa and IIIb products. Class IIIb products must also have a key
switch and connector for remote interlock. The products are also required
to have identifying and certifying labels and instructions for safe use.
*Pete Turner*
*From:* pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
*On Behalf Of *Eric Steinberg
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:20 PM
*To:* pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Hi –
Again, as I pointed out in my 11/25 email, the law is against selling a
laser that is over 5mw *as a “laser pointer.”* there *is absolutely
nothing wrong* with making or selling higher powered lasers as display
devices, scientific devices, theater equipment, etc. It’s about
labelling. What they are trying to avoid is people buying high-power
lasers to use as toys or for presentations where they are way too bright
and present a (slight) risk of possible injury. Astronomy falls under
scientific and/or display use and is perfectly legal all around.
Lawyers aside, can we please have some common sense here! Thanks,
William for your intelligent email below; as you point out even if your
200mw laser is incorrectly labelled as 5mw, that’s not your problem but the
seller’s.
That said, I hear all AZ police are being equipped with laser power
detectors and will be randomly stopping people to check for FDA
compliance. “Are you carrying any lasers in the vehicle tonight, sir?”
Eric
*From:* pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
*On Behalf Of *Pete Turner
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:03 PM
*To:* pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
William,
There is a federal law (FDA regulation supported by multiple acts of
Congress) against making or distributing any Class 3 laser pointer with a
greater power than 5mW. However there appears to be a loophole in that the
regulation doesn't seem to prohibit buying one, only making or selling!!
*Pete Turner*
MaidPro North Phoenix
602.765.1964
www.maidpro.com/phoenix-north
On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Redacted sender insanas for DMARC <
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks for the laser info, William. I guess the main thing is for
everyone who has one to be very careful. Sam
-----Original Message-----
From: William Finch <psychogilgamesh@xxxxxxxxx>
To: pasmembers <pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tue, Dec 8, 2015 11:21 pm
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
http://www.laserpointersafety.com/rules-general/uslaws/uslaws.html is a
site has a list of laser laws and links to the proper local or federal
resource. Note, I have no affiliation with this site and don't know if it's
missing any resources. This is not intended as legal counsel,
FDA regulations are more aimed toward protecting consumers from buying a
high powered laser that's mislabeled as a low powered one and blinding a
cat or child with it. However, this does often happen, like with the
example Terry Dancer sent out. It's labeled as 5mW but it's most likely a
200mW.
I know it's, it's against federal law to aim a laser at an aircraft or
into a flight path. It's also against Arizona law to aim a laser at an
occupied plane or at a peace officer. I don't think these laws mention the
power of the laser, but I may be wrong. Also, more laws may have been added
since I had last looked.
On topic of common sense w/ lasers:
1) Lasers are not toys and should be treated about the same respect as a
firearm.
2) If you're not sure what it is, don't aim a laser at it, it might be a
plane or worse. If needed, circle it, instead of pointing at it.
3) Be mindful of ricochets and reflections.
4) Avoid the horizon. The first 20 degrees is much more dangerous. Being
at that angle, you're more likely to shine into the cockpit of a plane.
Some other resources worth reading:
Some Pointers on Using Laser Pointers
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/some-pointers-on-the-use-of-laser-pointers/
A Look at the Hazards of Green Laser Pointers
http://www.universetoday.com/101171/a-look-at-the-hazards-of-green-laser-pointers/
ASSA Guidelines for the Safe Use of Hand Held Laser Pointers in Astronomy
https://www.assa.org.au/media/16425/laserguidelines.pdf
Laser Pointer Safety - Tips for outdoor use
http://www.laserpointersafety.com/tips/tips.html
Position Statement of The Royal Astronomical Society of Canada On Green
Laser Pointer Usage
http://rasc.ca/news/position-statement-green-laser-pointer-usage
On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 12:04 AM, insanas <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Alex, thanks for searching Arizona law. I must caution us on doing our
own legal research. There are Federal, state, county and city ordinances
and laws. There are laws made by legislatures, laws made by courts (case
law),
administrative laws , common laws, some may say too many laws. There are
law review articles, legislative histories, Constitutional laws, etc... It
could take several hours of research and analysis by an attorney with
access to law libraries and or computer legal research software. I am just
saying it isn't as simple as it sounds.
I do not have a copy of our insurance policy. It could be Mike, Terri,
Don , Bruce...? I am asking anyone who does gave a copy, to let us know. I
would imagine Eric gets the insurance premium so he could request a copy of
the policy with all riders. He could also call the ins Co to see what
their opinion is about laser damage coverage. Sometimes the ins co will
exclude such coverage or may charge extra for certain coverage. I have no
idea. I think the PAS board of directors (the 7 officers and 2 members at
large) may want to make a policy decision on proceding with this inquiry.
If any of our board wants to contact the rest of the board members, please
email all other board members with your ideas.
I hate to blow this thing out of proportion but the several emails from
PAS members suggest we may want to look further into this question. Sam
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smart
-------- Original message --------
From: Alex Vrenios <axv@xxxxxxx>
Date: 11/25/2015 10:57 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Sam,
Do you know if the insurance PAS carries against “tripping over tripod
legs, etc.” issues covers an accidental laser beam into an eye? I don’t
know if a flash past someone’s eye can do any damage (I sincerely doubt
it), but just in case it can, it might be comforting to know that we’re
covered, even if that accidental condition isn’t explicitly stated.
By the way, from what I could find online, AZ law says shining a laser at
a “peace officer,” or into an occupied aircraft is unlawful. I found no
mention of any reference to laser color or power limits.
Alex
On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:06 PM, insanas (Redacted sender "insanas" for
DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I am not allowed to give legal advice now that I have retired after 35
years of practicing.
You asked what I would do. I think the FDA for the last 35 years has
given more breaks to commercial entities and less to consumers. So when the
FDA suggests something is dangerous to consumersb, I wouldn't want to
chance hurting someone. As President of PAS I suggest we all be careful
with anything that could hurt anyone at our star parties. If PAS wants to
hire an attorney for hundreds of dollars for a legal opinion, we could do
that. I just suggest we be as careful as we can unless anyone in our club
demands that we get a legal opinion.
Sam
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Eric Steinberg <eric@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 11/25/2015 8:43 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Sam, I have to respectfully disagree – it’s Congress that makes laws and
there are no federal laws (and no AZ state laws) restricting the sale,
possession and proper use of higher-powered laser pointers. I think the
FDA’s use of the term “illegal” is unfortunate at best, a deliberate
obfuscation at worst. Their issues m
