I believe we can make a strong case for our use being scientific in nature,
especially since 5mw lasers don’t work for us. I am also willing to bet that
if your 5mw laser is wowing people at star parties, a careful measurement will
show it to be of much higher power. The labelling of these devices rather
“approximate” to say the least. The main point is to be careful.
From: pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Peter Turner
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 1:14 PM
To: pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Eric,
It’s not just about labelling or use. Any laser over 5mW must not only be
labeled as a Class IIIb or above laser (higher letters are considered more
powerful). It must also have a key switch on it and must have a connector for
a remote interlock. And, it must not be used for alignment, leveling, surveying
or demonstration. Given how we use lasers, it’s hard to see how these
regulations don’t apply.
The FDA has codified this in in CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11 (too long to be
included, however here are the links:
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1040.10
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1040.11
). That’s because they are classified as dangerous with nanosecond or above
exposure. The only class that specifically mentions binoculars, telescopes or
astronomy is a Class I laser which is the least powerful.
Below is a summary from the FDA about Laser classes, particularly class IIIa
and IIIb lasers:
How are laser products classified?
Lasers are generally classified according to the hazard posed by the amount and
type of light they emit. Hazard classes range from Class I to IV with Class I
lasers being non-hazardous and Class IV lasers being the most hazardous.
· Class I products include laser printers and CD players where the
laser radiation is usually contained within the product. Products exceeding
Class I permit access to some amount of laser radiation.
· Class II and IIa products include bar code scanners.
· Class IIIa products include laser pointers.
· Class IIIb and IV products include laser light shows, industrial
lasers, research lasers.
Does FDA have a mandatory limit on the power emitted by laser pointers?
Yes. Laser products promoted for pointing and demonstration purposes are
limited to hazard Class IIIa by FDA regulation.
21 CFR 1040.11(b) and 1040.11(c), limit surveying, leveling, and alignment, and
demonstration laser products to Class IIIa. This means that pointers are
limited to 5 milliwatts output power in the visible wavelength range from 400
to 710 nanometers. There are also limits for any invisible wavelengths and for
short pulses. Pointers may not exceed the accessible emission limits of CDRH
Class IIIa or
IEC1<http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationEmittingProductsandProcedures/HomeBusinessandEntertainment/LaserProductsandInstruments/ucm116373.htm#f1>
Class 3R.
Are Class IIIa laser pointers dangerous?
Class IIIa or IEC Class 3R lasers can be dangerous. Class IIIa lasers can cause
temporary visual effects such as flash blinding, which could distract or
startle the person exposed. The risk of injury is very small when Class IIIa
pointers are used responsibly because natural body motion of a person holding
the pointer or motion of a person who might be exposed makes it difficult to
expose the eyes for a long period of time. People also have a natural aversion
to bright lights and are likely to close their eyes and turn their heads if
exposed.
What are class IIIb lasers and are they dangerous?
Lasers that emit between 5mW and 500mW output power are in Class IIIb or IEC
Class 3B. Class IIIb lasers cannot legally be promoted as laser pointers or
demonstration laser products. Product labels and user instructions must
describe the hazard classification of the product and its output
characteristics.
With any laser product, the potential for injury depends both on the product
itself and how the product is used. Higher powered Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B
lasers are dangerous and can cause either temporary visual effects or an eye
injury.
What is the problem with more powerful Class IIIb lasers being promoted and
sold as pointers?
Class IIIb hand-held lasers are too dangerous for use as pointers or amusement
articles. Furthermore, promotion of Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B products for
pointing or amusement violates FDA requirements and United States law.
Manufacturers of such products may be required to repair, replace, or refund
the purchase price of violative products distributed in the U.S. These products
are also subject to detention and seizure by the U.S. Customs and Border
Protection when imported.
What is the problem with more powerful Class IIIb lasers being promoted and
sold as pointers?
Class IIIb hand-held lasers are too dangerous for use as pointers or amusement
articles. Furthermore, promotion of Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B products for
pointing or amusement violates FDA requirements and United States law.
Manufacturers of such products may be required to repair, replace, or refund
the purchase price of violative products distributed in the U.S. These products
are also subject to detention and seizure by the U.S. Customs and Border
Protection when imported.
Irresponsible use of more powerful laser pointers poses a significant risk of
injury to the people exposed. Persons who misuse or irresponsibly use lasers
are open to personal liability and prosecution.
What are the FDA requirements for Class IIIa and IIIb laser systems?
The FDA standard 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11) requires a warning label on Class
IIIa and IIIb products. Class IIIb products must also have a key switch and
connector for remote interlock. The products are also required to have
identifying and certifying labels and instructions for safe use.
Pete Turner
From: pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Eric Steinberg
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:20 PM
To: pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Hi –
Again, as I pointed out in my 11/25 email, the law is against selling a laser
that is over 5mw as a “laser pointer.” there is absolutely nothing wrong with
making or selling higher powered lasers as display devices, scientific devices,
theater equipment, etc. It’s about labelling. What they are trying to avoid
is people buying high-power lasers to use as toys or for presentations where
they are way too bright and present a (slight) risk of possible injury.
Astronomy falls under scientific and/or display use and is perfectly legal all
around.
Lawyers aside, can we please have some common sense here! Thanks, William for
your intelligent email below; as you point out even if your 200mw laser is
incorrectly labelled as 5mw, that’s not your problem but the seller’s.
That said, I hear all AZ police are being equipped with laser power detectors
and will be randomly stopping people to check for FDA compliance. “Are you
carrying any lasers in the vehicle tonight, sir?”
Eric
From: pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pete Turner
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:03 PM
To: pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
William,
There is a federal law (FDA regulation supported by multiple acts of Congress)
against making or distributing any Class 3 laser pointer with a greater power
than 5mW. However there appears to be a loophole in that the regulation
doesn't seem to prohibit buying one, only making or selling!!
Pete Turner
[http://taskbox.maidpro.com/macswebservice/templates/images/MP-Lockup-Bubbles-email-sig.png]
MaidPro North Phoenix
602.765.1964
www.maidpro.com/phoenix-north<http://www.maidpro.com/phoenix-north>
On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Redacted sender insanas for DMARC
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Thanks for the laser info, William. I guess the main thing is for everyone who
has one to be very careful. Sam
-----Original Message-----
From: William Finch
<psychogilgamesh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:psychogilgamesh@xxxxxxxxx>>
To: pasmembers <pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tue, Dec 8, 2015 11:21 pm
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
http://www.laserpointersafety.com/rules-general/uslaws/uslaws.html is a site
has a list of laser laws and links to the proper local or federal resource.
Note, I have no affiliation with this site and don't know if it's missing any
resources. This is not intended as legal counsel,
FDA regulations are more aimed toward protecting consumers from buying a high
powered laser that's mislabeled as a low powered one and blinding a cat or
child with it. However, this does often happen, like with the example Terry
Dancer sent out. It's labeled as 5mW but it's most likely a 200mW.
I know it's, it's against federal law to aim a laser at an aircraft or into a
flight path. It's also against Arizona law to aim a laser at an occupied plane
or at a peace officer. I don't think these laws mention the power of the laser,
but I may be wrong. Also, more laws may have been added since I had last looked.
On topic of common sense w/ lasers:
1) Lasers are not toys and should be treated about the same respect as a
firearm.
2) If you're not sure what it is, don't aim a laser at it, it might be a plane
or worse. If needed, circle it, instead of pointing at it.
3) Be mindful of ricochets and reflections.
4) Avoid the horizon. The first 20 degrees is much more dangerous. Being at
that angle, you're more likely to shine into the cockpit of a plane.
Some other resources worth reading:
Some Pointers on Using Laser Pointers
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/some-pointers-on-the-use-of-laser-pointers/
A Look at the Hazards of Green Laser Pointers
http://www.universetoday.com/101171/a-look-at-the-hazards-of-green-laser-pointers/
ASSA Guidelines for the Safe Use of Hand Held Laser Pointers in Astronomy
https://www.assa.org.au/media/16425/laserguidelines.pdf
Laser Pointer Safety - Tips for outdoor use
http://www.laserpointersafety.com/tips/tips.html
Position Statement of The Royal Astronomical Society of Canada On Green Laser
Pointer Usage
http://rasc.ca/news/position-statement-green-laser-pointer-usage
On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 12:04 AM, insanas
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Alex, thanks for searching Arizona law. I must caution us on doing our own
legal research. There are Federal, state, county and city ordinances and laws.
There are laws made by legislatures, laws made by courts (case law),
administrative laws , common laws, some may say too many laws. There are law
review articles, legislative histories, Constitutional laws, etc... It could
take several hours of research and analysis by an attorney with access to law
libraries and or computer legal research software. I am just saying it isn't as
simple as it sounds.
I do not have a copy of our insurance policy. It could be Mike, Terri, Don ,
Bruce...? I am asking anyone who does gave a copy, to let us know. I would
imagine Eric gets the insurance premium so he could request a copy of the
policy with all riders. He could also call the ins Co to see what their
opinion is about laser damage coverage. Sometimes the ins co will exclude such
coverage or may charge extra for certain coverage. I have no idea. I think the
PAS board of directors (the 7 officers and 2 members at large) may want to make
a policy decision on proceding with this inquiry. If any of our board wants to
contact the rest of the board members, please email all other board members
with your ideas.
I hate to blow this thing out of proportion but the several emails from PAS
members suggest we may want to look further into this question. Sam
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smart
-------- Original message --------
From: Alex Vrenios <axv@xxxxxxx<mailto:axv@xxxxxxx>>
Date: 11/25/2015 10:57 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Sam,
Do you know if the insurance PAS carries against “tripping over tripod legs,
etc.” issues covers an accidental laser beam into an eye? I don’t know if a
flash past someone’s eye can do any damage (I sincerely doubt it), but just in
case it can, it might be comforting to know that we’re covered, even if that
accidental condition isn’t explicitly stated.
By the way, from what I could find online, AZ law says shining a laser at a
“peace officer,” or into an occupied aircraft is unlawful. I found no mention
of any reference to laser color or power limits.
Alex
On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:06 PM, insanas (Redacted sender "insanas" for DMARC)
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I am not allowed to give legal advice now that I have retired after 35 years of
practicing.
You asked what I would do. I think the FDA for the last 35 years has given more
breaks to commercial entities and less to consumers. So when the FDA suggests
something is dangerous to consumersb, I wouldn't want to chance hurting
someone. As President of PAS I suggest we all be careful with anything that
could hurt anyone at our star parties. If PAS wants to hire an attorney for
hundreds of dollars for a legal opinion, we could do that. I just suggest we be
as careful as we can unless anyone in our club demands that we get a legal
opinion.
Sam
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Eric Steinberg <eric@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eric@xxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: 11/25/2015 8:43 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Fwd: green laser pointer
Sam, I have to respectfully disagree – it’s Congress that makes laws and there
are no federal laws (and no AZ state laws) restricting the sale, possession and
proper use of higher-powered laser pointers. I think the FDA’s use of the term
“illegal” is unfortunate at best, a deliberate obfuscation at worst. Their
issues m
