[macvoiceover] Re: Newbie Questions Day 2: Safari and the Web

Hi all, my two cents worth regarding the virtual cursor, and browse
mode is this, and that is, that once you surf with the mac, on a site
like youtube, and have listened to, or are currently listening to a
video, by pressing vo command h, you are taken to the first heading on
the comments page for that video, that is, if you have an account,
which is free, and from there, you can rate, add the video to your
favorites, and by pressing vo command h a second time, and vo right
arrowing, there is an edit box for comments.  You ask, why are you
telling us all this, when we don't use youtube, and that is, that once
you see that safari does not use a virtual buffer, you'll say to
yourself, at least, in my opinion, this virtual cursor browse mode
stuff is a bunch of horse hocky, pardon the bruskness, but it is so
much better when you can navigate, and know that the page isn't
constantly re-loading.  
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:46:25 -0500, Jacob Schmude wrote:

Hi Chris
This is entirely my take on it, and I may be completely off the mark.

It almost sounds like the problem you're having, in regards to getting 

lost, is you're used to the one-dimensional virtual buffers. VO, whe  
in group mode, is actually two dimensional. It can be confusing for  
the first few days, but stick with it and you'll get it.
In regards to this, I do have to stress stick with it. When I first  
started with the Mac I'd do the same thing, if it didn't work use  
Windows (Orca and Firefox didn't play well at that time so that wasn't 

a practical option). This ultimately turned out to be doing me a lot  
more harm than good, because I wasn't making myself understand VO's  
web navigation and, since it was so different from what I'd grown used 

to even though I hated virtual buffers, I wasn't really trying to  
understand it.
If you have the time, the best thing I can suggest is put your Windows 

or Linux system away--not because they're horrible systems, but  
because the fallback might actually be getting in your way. If I'm  
presuming, all apologies. This is just how it was for me. Use it for a 

few days, no falling back to the familiar, and you'll get it. In my  
case it just clicked at one point, I just had to get used to treating  
a web page like an Application. VO's uniformity of navigation, no  
matter what the situation, can be a bit daunting. Now, however, I am  
so much more efficient with VO than I ever have been with a virtual  
buffer it amazes me, and everyone who watches me navigate the web. I  
can easily find the content areas of web sites, probably because I now 

understand more accurately the visual convensions of web designers,  
and perhaps it's this same reason why I never get lost in a web page.  
Maybe this is just me, since VO so closely resembles what was always  
my screen reader of choice until its death, Outspoken.

Just my $0.02 on the matter.



On Dec 11, 2008, at 09:42, Chris Hofstader wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> I also use the item chooser, the list of links and the VO approach  
> to quick keys but still find myself "lost" in portions of a page or  
> unable to figure out how to get to places that I know are probably  
> there but am uncertain of how it may be labeled.  The total  
> flattening of the virtual buffer in the other screen readers causes  
> a lot of inefficiency  resulting from turning everything into a  
> laundry list of objects.  VO, though, seems to build a box of boxes  
> (which seems to work great for applications and, if they move in the  
> direction of an r-tree sorting algorithm with some intelligence  
> added, they may well be able to take screen reader UI well into this  
> century) I find I have trouble finding the right "box" on many web  
> pages.
>
> This is probably due to ignorance but I cannot seem to find a way to  
> do a SayAll in Html or PDF with VO.  I get lots of long, scholarly  
> stuff in these formats and I just want to hit a single keystroke and  
> let it rip.  I also want a single key stop speech but place me where  
> I stopped as often my reason for stopping is so I can get the  
> spelling of a word or person's name.  I then want to restart the  
> SayAll from the same point and continue until I feel like stopping  
> again.  If this is possible with VO, I haven't found out how in a  
> pretty lot of reading.  Again, this may be a vocabulary problem or  
> that I'm brain damaged from a decade of JAWS on the brain.
>
> Lastly, I can't quite figure out the Find (Command+F) in Safari with  
> VO.  Is there an analogue to the virtual searches in the Windows  
> screen access tools?
>
> Happy Hacking,
> cdh
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