[lit-ideas] Re: Russian?
- From: "Walter C. Okshevsky" <wokshevs@xxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, Donal McEvoy <donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 14:56:10 -0330
"Poor Winnie the Pooh; he doesn't know enough to get in out of the rain."
Conceptually, what is being asserted is that W de P, doesn't know that he should
get in ...."
Believing that he should reset his computer by turning it off and back on,
thanks to the storms, power outages and 40 cm of snowfall!!!
Walter O
Quoting Donal McEvoy <donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
> >It is a conceptual/logical truth that "believe" / "belief" does not permit a
> procedural sense. You cannot "believe how" something. You can believe that,
> believe in, believe for, but no natural language could permit a procedural
> sense of "believe" / "belief.">
>
> "How do I reset this computer?"
>
> "I believe how you do it is simply turn it off and back on."
>
>
> >OK, one more. While "knowledge" permits a propositional (k-that) and a
> procedural (k-how) sense, there is no such thing as "knowing to." >
>
> "What should I know if I'm ski-ing when an avalanche starts above?"
>
> "You should know to ski off to the side."
>
> "What I about you?"
>
> "I know to quickly bury myself in a hole."
>
>
> These examples perhaps show that 'believing how' and 'knowing to' may feature
> in ordinary language. If so, this may constitute a problem to be explained
> for those who think these features represent conceptual impossibilities (they
> may try to explain such examples away as not genuine cases of 'believing how'
> and 'knowing to', but this may simply shift the problem).
>
> Donal
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, 5 January 2014, 22:08, Walter C. Okshevsky <wokshevs@xxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> Just to be clear. What I take to be transcendental here is the "fact" that
> rules
> are social conventions which have their force and significance through
> agents'
> accordance with and recognition of them in social, purposive interaction.
> They
> are as such learned, and necessarily so.
>
> A T'l argument to that effect would have to begin with our actual capacity
> for
> speaking and learning a language, and reconstruct the apriori conditions
> necessary for the possibility of all that. Such an argument, I contend, would
> not be "historical" in the sense of being historically relative. If
> successful/correct, the argument would identify necessary and universal
> conditions of a practice wherever that practice is practiced, and even if
> that
> practice were no longer practiced. The historical and cultural origins of a
> practice, being empirical matters, are irrelevant in T'l argument. I.e. that
> a
> German identified correctly a couple of apriori conditions of moral
> judgement,
> doesn't make autonomy a German phenomenon. And, while laws of nature are not
> T'l, the laws of gravity (properly circumscribed) are not British.
>
> Walter O
> MUN
>
>
> Quoting Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>:
>
> > There is obviously an innate ability to acquire language in humans (not
> > shared with hedgehogs, presumably) but to claim the existence of an innate
> > grammar is in effect to claim that we are born with language, or some
> crucial
> > aspects of it. This seems highly unlikely on logical grounds. We aren't
> born
> > knowing the words of a language, or sounds, so why should we be born with a
> > grammar ? Those who make such an unlikely claim carry the burden of
> empirical
> > proof, which as far as I know hasn't been provided. But I don't think that
> I
> > would go as far as to say that this is a transcendental argument, i.e. it
> is
> > logically possible or imaginable that this could be the case.
> >
> > O.K.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sunday, January 5, 2014 7:35 PM, Walter C. Okshevsky <wokshevs@xxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I believe that McWhorter's "language hoax" is right on. But perhaps my
> > reasons
> > for that conclusion differ from his. Mine are transcendental. I'm not sure
> > what
> > his are. But if they're strictly empirical, he doesn't have a leg to stand
> > on.
> >
> > Those amongst us who wish to claim that "It's really all cultural" or "It's
> > really all political" may wish to consider whether that claim is an
> empirical
> > claim or one making a transcendental (i.e. universal and necessary) claim
> > about
> > relations between concepts their possibilities and limits given our "form
> of
> > life" or "being-in-the-world."
> >
> > Walter O
> >
> >
> > Quoting Robert Paul <rpaul@xxxxxxxx>:
> >
> > > Julie wrote
> > >
> > >
> > > The article which triggered my original question was all about language
> > > acquisition and fluency development. Any general reactions to this?
> > >
> >
>
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/12/30/258376009/how-language-seems-to-shape-ones-view-of-the-world?utm_content=socialflow&utm_campaign=nprfacebook&utm_source=npr&utm_medium=facebook
> > >
> > >
> > > You might want to look at
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/12/30/258376009/how-language-seems-to-shape-ones-view-of-the-world?utm_content=socialflow&utm_campaign=nprfacebook&utm_source=npr&utm_medium=facebook>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Sapir%E2%80%93Whorf_hypothesis.html
> > >
> > >
> > > The so-called Sapir-Whorf (Whorf was Sapir's student; they did not
> > > collaborate) has been around for a long time, under the name 'linguistic
> > > relativity.' Most people think it's been thoroughly debunked, although a
> > > 'weaker version of it' is still around.
> > >
> > >
> > > This is the origin of the view your article sets out.
> > >
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_time_controversy
> > >
> > >
> > > might be of interest
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Paul, who has a vast indifference to time
> > >
> >
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