[lit-ideas] Re: Olivier Roy, Daniel Pipes and Oriana Fallaci

From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "lit-ideas" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 13:04:18 -0500
I take your points.  I also want to make a disclaimer.  I am not a
"feminist".  All I focus on are why humans are so warped and how to create
better humans, an amazingly simple, do-able goal that is all but impossible
to implement.  Feminism has principles that coincide with this goal, and it
has principles that don't.  For example, the trend (trend might be too
strong a word, acceptability) now of women in this country having children
through (I even hate to say it) sperm banks may be a woman's ?right", but
it deprives the child of a father.  Single parent households are as
?normal? as Ozzie and Harriet once were, especially among minorities. 
Unfortunately, all children need, optimally must have, two good (good
enough) parents.  That's why I object to gay adoptions.  Gay marriage is
fine, but if you want children in a gay marriage, you're saying the child?s
needs don't count, only your ?rights? count.  

Iraq is not a good example of women's rights because essentially under
Saddam no one had any "rights" except Saddam.  Even his sons were subjected
to horrendous abuse.  There are allegations that Saddam had his son
brutally beaten such that he walked with a limp, in order to shame him. 
Saddam himself broke his son's arm in the hospital (his older son I
believe) after he tried to commit suicide.  That society functioned about
as well as did the society on which it was patterned, i.e., Stalinism. 
From Amnesty International:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140012005?open&of=ENG-IRQ

As far as Japan goes, Japan is advanced materially.  Personally, though,
they strike me as a depressed society (personal opinion, I'm entitled). 
The "salarymen/geisha" connection speaks to very little relational ability
(John can tell me if I?m all wet).  I did see a segment on CNN that older
Japanese men are taking cooking classes and learning to relate to their
wives because of the high rate of divorce in that country.  One of the
things they're told to do is be home by 8:00 and listen to their wives. 
Overall, though, the extreme, off the charts hatred evidenced at Nan King
and during WWII speaks to a culture that is filled with suppressed rage
(anger turned inward equals depression).  Their politics are also corrupt. 
From what I've read too, Japan has quite the appetite for sex with
teenagers.  The Yakuza is quite prolific other there.  None of this, in my
opinion, points to a society that is inherently stable.  I keep waiting for
something to come along and spark the suppressed rage (again, my opinion). 
Also, women in Japan are not as suppressed as in Arab countries.  They?re
more or less equivalent to the West (John?). 

Regarding covering the face, voluntary or not, I don't believe there is
such a thing as voluntary, in the same way that almost all people
"voluntarily" have the same religion of their parents.  Covering the face
would be fine if what's good for the goose were good for the gander: if
women can cover their faces, so can men.  Short of that, societal
expectation for covering the face is abusive.

Places like Saudi Arabia that have polygamy are guaranteed to have, in
essence, orphaned, or at least fatherless children.  When one man can have
50 children, he is essentially a sperm donor, leaving his progeny, men in
particular, to guess at what manhood is.  As with gangs and machismo in
general, masculinity becomes hypermasculinity and femininity becomes
hyperfemininity.  Hyper anything is grounded in sadness and anger.  It's
like these people function with a perpetual toothache.  There is simply no
energy left over for other than obsessing about sex (70 virgins in heaven,
etc.).  Child sexual abuse is also widespread in these areas.  It's not for
no reason that Michael Jackson went to Saudi Arabia with his children.  In
short, if women are not treated fairly, then neither are men and especially
not children (future adults).  Result: backwardness.

I'm sure you don't agree with these ideas, you probably think they're
"soft" and irrelevant.  I'm sorry about that.  It's much easier to talk in
terms of isms and ideologies than look at why human behavior is so bizarre.
But everybody feels that way, so I?m not surprised.  I opened my comments
with the statement regarding the impossibility of these ideas.

In any case, thank for your comments.  I find it curious that the Islamist
in our midst winds up being among the most rational.  May I ask what it is
about Islam that you find so appealing?  If that?s an unfair question (why
is Christianity or Judaism so appealing?), then just ignore it.





> [Original Message]
> From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 3/26/2006 2:47:37 AM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Olivier Roy, Daniel Pipes and Oriana Fallaci
>
>
>
> --- Andy Amago <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > It would be like blaming Christianity for the
> > Inquisition, for witch
> > burning, even for the death of Christopher Marlowe. 
> > The problem isn't the
> > religion; the problem is that the religion is
> > co-opted as an excuse to hate
> > women. 
>
> *Yes, I think there will be some truth to this. Many
> of the practices that are said to be "Islamic" are not
> actually ordained by Islam but stem from the
> pre-Islamic or medieval Arab culture. However, I doubt
> that this can account for the Arab (generally
> speaking) political or economic backwardness. Saddam's
> Iraq had many women intellectuals and professionals
> (apparently there were more women doctors than men),
> the personal and family laws were quite liberal etc.
> This did not prevent Iraq's political and economic
> situation from being among the worst, perhaps the very
> worst, in the Arab world. The causes of this are
> complex but I don't think women's status will be among
> the major ones. East Asian countries such as Japan,
> South Korea etc. which are not known for their liberal
> treatment of women seem to have solid modern economies
> and reasonably functioning political systems. This
> doesn't mean that feminist criticisms of the Arab
> societies have no merit, but one doesn't want to jump
> to judgements (see below).
>
>  Picture (as an experiment) hating men
> > instead of women, treating
> > all Muslim men as nonentities, forcing them to cover
> > their faces,
> > controlling every move they make, keeping them
> > illiterate, then giving
> > these hated, illiterate, nonentity men the job of
> > raising Muslim children. 
>
> *I don't support covering the face, among other
> reasons because it is not actually ordained in Islam.
> However, I don't think that following this custom
> would necessarily turn one into a "non-entity." The
> issue is whether there is coercion. Personally I
> oppose legislation mandating the wearing of nikab or
> even of hijab, e.g. in Saudi Arabia or Iran, just as I
> oppose legislation that prohibits, e.g. in France or
> Turkey. That said, Western countries also have social
> norms and even laws that seek to control dress and
> appearance. 
> As for being illiterate, the Taliban did ban women
> from education, but most Arab and Muslim countries do
> not (Iran certainly doesn't, I am not sure about Saudi
> Arabia). Many Arab and Muslim women are not at all
> "illiterate" and Islamic feminism is not actually some
> rare bird. You can check out for example these two
> websites if you are interested:
>
> http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm
>
> http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essays/polirights.html
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html


------------------------------------------------------------------
To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
[lit-ideas] Re: Olivier Roy, Daniel Pipes and Oriana Fallaci

Other related posts:
