[lit-ideas] Re: Mexican protesting
- From: "Judith Evans" <judithevans1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 21:36:04 +0100
LH>In regard to France, I have read similar comments in Jonathan Fenby's
>France on the Brink, Jean-Francois Revel's Anti-Americanism,
>and Bruce Bawer's While Europe Slept
Thank you. I'm afraid by citations I meant something more specific
(examples of ways in which European countries had restricted Christianity
while not restricting Islam).
LH>Oriana Fallaci waxed in eloquent outrage
as she does... but on Italy I have a specific issue (so we don't have to
rely on Fallaci's venom).
Italy is officially a secular state but crucifixes are customary in state
school classrooms and in courtrooms and a judge was suspended for refusing
to have them in his court and also convicted of a criminal offence and
given a suspended prison sentence (because of his stance).
The Union of Italian Muslims campaign to have crucifixes removed from
schools and hospitals. Their leader won a court case re crucifixes in his
children's school but the ruling was reversed "after a nationwide protest".
Italy's Constitutional Court ruled in 2004 that crucifixes should stay in
classrooms and courts but apparently gave no reason.
(My source: www.freerepublic.com -- here's a BBC report of the UIM leader's
court case, it gives more details :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3215445.stm )
LH>The head covering issue is always mentioned by those who argue that
Islamic is not LH>making Islamic inroads into European society. It
presented as a sign that France is LH>cracking down on Islamic intrusions,
it isn't the only sign: France is far tougher than most countries on issues
of secularism and is monocultural in ethos. Shirin Ebadi, the Iranian
Muslim woman human rights campaigner and winner of the
Nobel Peace Prize in 2003, applauds the French universalist
(i.e. anti-"multiculturalist", antirelativist) tradition.
LH> but France has probably had more Islamic intrusions than
LH>any other European country. It invites in immigrants and doesn't
LH>impose any requirements on them. They don't need to have jobs.
LH> They don't need to speak French. They don't need to get a job.
I'd like chapter and verse on all this however I suspect that France,
like the UK, does not force all immigrants regardless of age to
learn English: their children will.
LH>Furthermore they can live in the Islamic enclave if their choice.
as they can in the US
LH> Muslims need to have their prayer time. They need to be off Friday.
They need halal LH>food.
Jewish people may wish to keep the Sabbath and to eat kosher food.
(Some Jewish people.) I am not religious but all these observances are fine
by me.
LH> They need you to not joke about anything they do or say,
LH>especially not anything about Islam or Mohammad.
LH> Maybe you are used to joking about Christianity,
LH>but you'd better not do that with Islam or we'll burn your cars.
you have a fixation about car burning, don't you? -- when Muslims do it,
that is.
LH>Then too, daughters are mutilated at the desire of the parents with
LH> no interference.
Female genital mutilation of non-Muslim US women was paid for
by the Blue Cross till 1977. It is now mainly practiced in Africa
(most Muslim countries do not practice it). Type I FGC (female genital
cutting, Type 1 is the "least radical", least mutilating, form) is still
openly available in the US. It is banned in the UK and in France. Indeed,
in France, in recent years, women excising minor girls have been gaoled for
up to 5 years.
LH>If someone wants several wives, no one will arrest him.
"Between 150,000 and 400,000 people live in polygamous households
in France, in which a man is married to more than one woman.
The French state is trying to change the situation -- with mixed
results. (Deutsche Welle)
The government argues that living in polygamy prevents
immigrants from becoming integrated into French society
and that it goes against the principles of gender equality
enshrined in the constitution.
Polygamy was made illegal in France in 1993.
Those who still live in polygamy have either been doing so
since before the law was passed or they married abroad. "
LH>If a father needs to kill his daughter to preserve the honor
>of the family, he will receive a light sentence for doing so,
>because that is "there way," and their way
>(not the French way which has laws against these actions)
>needs to be respected.
It is not "the French way" to ignore infringements of French law. Have you
links that give examples of light sentences for honour killings in France?
Judy Evans, Cardiff
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Mexican protesting
In regard to France, I have read similar comments in Jonathan Fenby's France
on the Brink, Jean-Francois Revel's Anti-Americanism, and Bruce Bawer's
While Europe Slept. Bawer spent a lot of time in Holland and Norway and the
same seems to be true in those nations, but worse in Holland. Oriana
Fallaci waxed in eloquent outrage about this sort of thing happening in
Italy (in her books The Rage and the Pride, and The Force of Reason).
Claire Berlinski generalizes about much of Europe in Menace in Europe, Why
the Continent's Crisis is America's Too. Perhaps her treatment of Germany
is most interesting. I've also encountered this common assessment in a
great number of articles. By the way, I have also read Daniel Pipes
Militant Islam Reaches America. The tenor of his book is different from the
other's I've mentioned. Certain things have happened here but as much as
anything they involve inattention. We do finally wake up and arrest the
Islamists for breaking our laws. We do have our multiculturalists, but they
are apparently not as pervasive as they are in continental Europe.
The head covering issue is always mentioned by those who argue that Islamic
is not making Islamic inroads into European society. It presented as a sign
that France is cracking down on Islamic intrusions, but France has probably
had more Islamic intrusions than any other European country. It invites in
immigrants and doesn't impose any requirements on them. They don't need to
have jobs. They don't need to speak French. They don't need to get a job.
Furthermore they can live in the Islamic enclave if their choice. Muslims
need to have their prayer time. They need to be off Friday. They need
halal food. They need you to not joke about anything they do or say,
especially not anything about Islam or Mohammad. Maybe you are used to
joking about Christianity, but you'd better not do that with Islam or we'll
burn your cars. We'll burn a whole bunch of cars. Then too, daughters are
mutilated at the desire of the parents with no interference. If someone
wants several wives, no one will arrest him. If a father needs to kill his
daughter to preserve the honor of the family, he will receive a light
sentence for doing so, because that is "there way," and their way (not the
French way which has laws against these actions) needs to be respected.
Lawrence
/04/2006
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