[guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
- From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:30:45 -0000
Hi Laura;
I don't believe anyone was flaming anyone else, it's just a philosophical
debate, and those tend to get a little entrenched *smile*.
Culture, in the socialogical sense of being a set of shared values and
norms, is a funny thing, and probably explains the differences. The
European culture, certainly that found in continental Europe is one to the
left of the political spectrum, I even hear from a friend that if you're
blind in Spain you get a lot of free equipment and a job selling lottery
tickets. Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but it does typify the
more left wing culture. Compare this to countries where the culture is more
towards the individual bares the responsibility, and there's a difference,
with the UK sitting in the middle, as usual *smile*. This can also be
accounted for by psychology, where the more you are exposed to stimuli, such
as people saying you are expected to buy your own screen reader, the more
you become conditioned to believe it.
Where constantly upgrading equipment, and possibly even buying it in the
first place, hits a problem, is in those cultures where the expectation is
that people should buy their own equipment. Some elements of society may be
able to afford this, however some may not. This isn't to do with the cost
of technology, as technology providers have to cover their costs, but is the
technological divide between the have's and have nots. Simply put, some
people just can't afford the pace of change on their own. The question of
how this is to be overcome is one I'm not really qualified to answer, but
I'm not a proponent of holding back technilogical advance, rather just aware
that some people may not be able to cope with that pace of advancement
compared to others, and one such group is people with disabilities, where,
according to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which is a sociological
research group in the UK, unemployment is higher in this social group
compared to the national average. It's a tough problem to sort out, as the
price of technology is about right in relation to costs of production, and
so it's unreasonable to expect prices to lower. Yet, there's got to be a
way found so that everyone who wishes to can benefit from the technological
evolution, as no one's denying that computers and the broader spectrum of
technology can bring tremendous benefits to people.
Will
Who really should have done sociology rather than computer studies *smile*
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 2:02 AM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> Oh, sorry Will -- I know things are different in different countries, and
> also across the atlantic... But I am not so much flaming or trying to
prove
> a point (although it sounds that way) but just sharing ideas, and like to
> hear why people disagree, if they disagree, as that can help everybody
think
> more clearly.
> But again, backward compatibility is important -- again, not to the
extreme,
> but at least for a while -- and I was actually in development and not
> research at AT&T and could see the problems customers were having,
although
> I saw the reasoning of the research types as well.
> I had to take their prototypes and make them products, which was sometimes
a
> major undertaking if it wasn't designed well.
> And for a little while I did customer support and got direct feedback from
> customers, and many of them indeed did want to slow down the change or
keep
> things compatible, for very valid reasons.
> Anyway, I don't want to make a big deal about it or promote one political
> view above another -- just speak according to my experience, which is
> limited but I think different from other's experience and therefore might
be
> of interest.
> I hope if you have any future observations and examples you will share
them.
> People usually hold their positions for a very good reason and people need
> to listen to each other -- but hasn't the human race failed miserably at
> that!
> Take care and have a great weekend!
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:47 PM
> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>
>
> > Hi Laura;
> >
> > No, I'll stop here. What's different is the mind set between the states
> > and
> > europe, something which has been the case for quite some time. So,
whilst
> > I
> > don't like discussing politics any way, others and myself will keep on
> > going
> > round in circles due to the transatlantic difference.
> >
> > Will
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 1:15 AM
> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> >
> >
> >> Will -- I agree to a point, but at some point backward compatibility
puts
> > a
> >> real drag on a technology and it is best to update even if it is hard.
> >> Now as for Iraq, it is actually a wealthy country, although the
resources
> >> are mostly divided among a few rich families.
> >> But with some appropriate business moves and maybe government
> > redistribution
> >> of wealth and funding of schools and such, then selling or sending them
> > old,
> >> outdated technology is not only inappropriate but would be
> > counterproductive
> >> for them and bad for business for us.
> >> Actually, distributing something new is much cheaper than trying to
> >> resurrect or reallocate something that is old or worn out, especially
> > where
> >> computers are concerned.
> >> But that's just a thought for your consideration -- if you disagree,
feel
> >> free to flame away and I may listen...
> >> Take care!
> >> --le
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:01 PM
> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ah, but Mr. Shandro, the digital devide is all about accessibility.
> >> > Accessibility isn't purely the domain of people with disabilities, if
> > you
> >> > think it is, then you really are kidding yourself. Accessibility is
> >> > purely
> >> > about whether someone can do something, and that can equally be
applied
> > to
> >> > the people down the street as it can someone with a disability. So,
> >> > whether
> >> > it works on low cost machines is a matter of accessibility, but just
> >> > accessibility for people who can only afford low cost machines, not
> >> > accessibility for people with disabilities.
> >> >
> >> > If you think accessibility only concerns people with disabilities,
then
> > I
> >> > suggest you take a look at an earlier post I made in this thread, in
> > which
> >> > I
> >> > stated accessibility is a measure of whether someone can do something
> >> > or
> >> > not, then have a look at the world around you. I see at the bottom
of
> >> > your
> >> > sig block you mention the war in Iraq. Do you think those thousands
of
> >> > innocent civillians who were tortured under Saddam can afford the
> >> > latest
> >> > technology. Probably not, and as such the latest technology is not
> >> > accessible to them.
> >> >
> >> > Accessibility is about more attributes than purely whether you are
> >> > disabled
> >> > or not.
> >> >
> >> > Will
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:37 PM
> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Hi David,
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, in your scenario below, I guess I'd just have to do without
the
> > new
> >> >> technology. That's pretty simple. If I work harder or do things
> >> >> differently, I might be able to make some more money to get the
newer
> >> >> technology. I just don't consider this to be a matter of
> > accessibility.
> >> >> Maybe it is one of those "digital divide" issues, but it has nothing
> >> >> to
> >> >> do
> >> >> with my mission of improving the lives of my blind brothers and
> >> >> sisters
> >> >> through the implementation of proper accessibility.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >> >> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> >> >> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >> >> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> > http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
Freedom!
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:48 PM
> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > So darrell,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What would you do if you were the father of 6 and had a min9imum
> >> >> > wage
> >> > job
> >> >> > and your wife was ill and you had this old pc that ran windows.95
or
> >> >> > dos
> >> >> > or
> >> >> > maybe you decided you would put linux on it because all the stuff
> >> >> > was
> >> > free
> >> >> > and along came this fantastic new technology that you couldn't
get?
> > I
> >> >> > don't
> >> >> > think we have a back ward compatibility issue here, we have an
> >> >> > accessibility
> >> >> > issue here that is a result of lack of backward compatibility.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Johnnie Apple Seed
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:34 PM
> >> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Laura,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes. It is all a matter of reasonability rather than
accessibility
> >> >> > when
> >> >> > we're talking about backward compatibility. I feel it is
important
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > we
> >> >> > make a differentiation here. Technology advances and there's just
> >> >> > no
> >> > way
> >> >> > around that. We're all in big trouble if we're going to associate
a
> >> >> > desire
> >> >> > for backward compatibility with the need for accessibility for
> >> >> > people
> >> > with
> >> >> > disabilities.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >> >> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> >> >> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >> >> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> >> > http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >> >> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> > Freedom!
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> > To: "guispeak" <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:29 PM
> >> >> > Subject: [guispeak] here's the missing post...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Hi Dave and all -- here is the post that never came back to me.
> >> >> >> Not
> >> > that
> >> >> >> it
> >> >> >> is such an important and earth-shattering post, but I do want my
> > posts
> >> > to
> >> >> >> get through...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Anyway, here it is:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hi Dave --
> >> >> >> Well that's true to an extent, if there are several choices of
> >> > something
> >> >> >> available to the general public, but only the most expensive is
> >> >> >> accessible
> >> >> >> to blind. (I ran into this even with something as unrelated as a
> >> > sewing
> >> >> >> machine -- the only accessible one was top-of-the-line, which my
> >> >> >> Mom
> >> >> >> bought,
> >> >> >> but I felt awful having her pay that much.)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> But on the other hand, you are not talking about driving a
> > cadillac --
> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> are talking about driving a horse-drawn carriage (win95) which
> > almost
> >> > no
> >> >> >> one
> >> >> >> uses any more, and the currently available operating systems are
> >> >> >> all
> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> much
> >> >> >> more accessible, or have so many more hooks to work with screen
> >> > reaaders,
> >> >> >> that upgrading is really not only wise, but will soon become
> >> >> >> essential.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Now I was a bit annoyed at having to buy a gsm cell phone with
all
> >> > kinds
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> features I didn't need, in order to have the menus speak. But I
> >> >> >> encourage
> >> >> >> software companies to develop such accessible software, even if I
> > have
> >> > to
> >> >> >> spend a little to be a guinea pig.
> >> >> >> Now that I've had a job -- at least long enough to have a little
> > money
> >> > to
> >> >> >> spend experimenting on such things, I really have enjoyed getting
> >> >> >> involved
> >> >> >> in the troubleshooting, and if it eventually filters down to the
> > less
> >> >> >> expensive phones and systems, all the better.
> >> >> >> (But it was really a very overpriced phone!<frown>)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Take care, and try copying your data and upgrading your operating
> >> > system.
> >> >> >> Take care!
> >> >> >> --le
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <
> >> >> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> To: <
> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:38 PM
> >> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
(fwd)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> It is a fact that 70 percent of blind people are unemployed or
at
> >> > least
> >> >> >>> under employed so Accessibility includes a multiplicity of
things
> > in
> >> >> >>> this
> >> >> >>> instance, such as:
> >> >> >>> Can I access it with my ancient computer? Can I aford to get on
> > the
> >> >> >>> internet to access it? Can I access it without a sound card and
> > get
> >> >> >>> benefit
> >> >> >>> out of it? I'm afraid that w eneed to think hard when we say
that
> >> >> >>> something
> >> >> >>> is accessible. Saying that asking too much is offputting is
> >> >> >>> doging
> >> > the
> >> >> >>> issue. There are degrees of accessibility so if you announce
> >> > something,
> >> >> >>> it
> >> >> >>> is best o say that there is this thang a happenin' and if ya
wanna
> >> >> >>> partake
> >> >> >>> of it, ya gotta be able to drive a cadelak.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Johnnie Apple Seed
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
> >> >> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> To: <
> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:26 PM
> >> >> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
(fwd)
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Hi Will,
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> But that's simply a matter of meeting the application's system
> >> >> >>> requirements.
> >> >> >>> Certainly, from a blindness or even a disabilities point of
view,
> >> >> >>> this
> >> >> >>> has
> >> >> >>> nothing to do with the application's accessibility. All that
> >> >> >>> concerns
> >> >> >>> me
> >> >> >>> is, well, can I use the application as a person with a
disability,
> > so
> >> >> >>> long
> >> >> >>> as I otherwise can meet the mainstream system requirements? By
> >> > bringing
> >> >> >>> in
> >> >> >>> other things that aren't directly relevant to accessibility for
> > users
> >> >> >>> with
> >> >> >>> disabilities, we run the risk of turning mainstream developers
off
> >> >> >>> our
> >> >> >>> pleas
> >> >> >>> for greater accessibility for our needs. Let's only ask for
> >> >> >>> what's
> >> >> >>> absolutely required.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Besides, Windows 95 is very old now... Time for folks to
upgrade.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >> >> >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> >> >> >>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >> >> >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> >> >> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> > Freedom!
> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>> From: "Will Pearson" <
> >> >> >> will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> To: <
> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:16 PM
> >> >> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
(fwd)
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>> Hi;
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> It is an accessibility issue in the pure sense of
accessibility.
> >> >> >>>> Accessibility is a measure of whether someone can do something,
> > and
> >> >> >>>> this
> >> >> >>>> regards whether the application in question can be accessed by
> > those
> >> >> >>>> running
> >> >> >>>> operating systems that the application did not target during
it's
> >> > SDLC.
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> Will
> >> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
> >> >> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>> To: <
> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:09 PM
> >> >> >>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
> >> >> >>>> (fwd)
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Hi David,
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Probably not, but that is an OS compatibility issue, not one
of
> >> >> >>>>> accessibility. We need to keep these issues well separated.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >> >> >>>>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems
administrator!
> >> >> >>>>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >> >> >>>>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> > Freedom!
> >> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>>>> From: "david poehlman" <
> >> >> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> To: <
> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:25 AM
> >> >> >>>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
> > (fwd)
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> > can I use windows.95?
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> > Johnnie Apple Seed
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>>>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
> >> >> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> > To: <
> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:19 PM
> >> >> >>>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
> >> >> >>>>> > (fwd)
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> > Hi David,
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> > Looks reasonably accessible. What's wrong with it?
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >> >> >>>>> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems
> > administrator!
> >> >> >>>>> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >> >> >>>>> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> > Freedom!
> >> >> >>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>>>> > From: "david poehlman" <
> >> >> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> > To: <
> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:59 AM
> >> >> >>>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
> >> >> >>>>> > (fwd)
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> >> too bad it's not accessible to most users.
> >> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
> >> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>>>> >> From: "Andy Baracco" <
> >> >> >> wq6r@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >> To: <
> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >> Cc: <
> >> >> >> whoweare@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >> ; <
> >> >> >> acb-l@xxxxxxx>
> >> >> >> ;
> >> >> >>>> <
> >> >> >> ccb-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:14 AM
> >> >> >>>>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Fw: online internet learning session
> >> >> >>>>> >> (fwd)
> >> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:43:45 -0500
> >> >> >>>>> >>>From: Lynn Evans <
> >> >> >> evans-lynn@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>To:
> >> >> >> VICUG-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >> Subject: Fw: online internet learning session
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Hello VICUG listers
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>If you or someone you know are interested in learning more
> >> >> >>>>> >>>about
> >> >> >>>>> >>>the
> >> >> >>>>> >>>power
> >> >> >>>>> >>>of the internet please go to this link below.
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Monday, November 15, beginning at 11:00 a.m. Eastern
Daylight
> >> > Time,
> >> >> >>>> 10:00
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Central, 9:00 Mountain, and 8:00 Pacific:
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Introduction to the Internet, the Web, and iVocalize. Get
an
> >> >> >>>>> >>>overview
> >> >> >>>> and
> >> >> >>>>> >>>basic orientation to the power and richness of the
Internet,
> > the
> >> >> >>>>> >>>World
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Wide
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Web, and iVocalize, the software program from Talking
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Communities
> >> >> >>>>> >>>used
> >> >> >>>>> >>>for
> >> >> >>>>> >>>OPAL programs. Learn the basics of email, browsing, text
> >> >> >>>>> >>>chat,
> >> >> >>>>> >>>voice-over-IP
> >> >> >>>>> >>>conversations, searching, and information retrieval.
Whether
> > you
> >> >> >>>>> >>>want
> >> >> >>>> to
> >> >> >>>>> >>>use
> >> >> >>>>> >>>the Internet and the Web to learn, work, communicate, play,
> >> >> >>>>> >>>or
> >> > all
> >> >> >>>>> >>>of
> >> >> >>>> the
> >> >> >>>>> >>>above, this session will have something for you.
Facilitated
> > by
> >> > Tom
> >> >> >>>>> >>>Peters.
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>If the links above aren't active please use the link below:
> >> >> >>>>> >>>http://www.opal-online.org/programs.htm
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>
> >> >> >>>>> >>>VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
> >> >> >>>>> >>>To join or leave the list, send a message to
> >> >> >>>>> >>>listserv@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In the body of the
message,
> >> > simply
> >> >> >>>> type
> >> >> >>>>> >>>"subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the
> >> >> >>>>> >>>quotations.
> >> >> >>>>> >>> VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at
> >> >> >>>>> >>>http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html
> >> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >> >>>>> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
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> >> >> >>>>> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> >>>>> > ** or send a message, to
> >> >> >>>>> > **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >>>>> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
> >> >> >>>>> > link:-
> >> >> >>>>> > **
[mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> >>>>> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> >>>>> > **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >>>>> >
> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> >>>>> > ** unsubscribe
> >> >> >>>>> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on
the
> >> >> >>>>> > ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >>>>> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> >>>>> > ** or send a message, to
> >> >> >>>>> > **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
link:-
> >> >> >>>>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> >>>>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> >>>>> **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> >>>>> ** unsubscribe
> >> >> >>>>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> >> >>>>> ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >>>>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> >>>>> ** or send a message, to
> >> >> >>>>> **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >>>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> >>>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> >>>> **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> >>>> ** unsubscribe
> >> >> >>>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> >> >>>> ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >>>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> >>>> ** or send a message, to
> >> >> >>>> **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> >>> **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> >>> ** unsubscribe
> >> >> >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> >> >>> ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> >>> ** or send a message, to
> >> >> >>> **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> >>> **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> >>> ** unsubscribe
> >> >> >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> >> >>> ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> >>> ** or send a message, to
> >> >> >>> **
> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> >> ** unsubscribe
> >> >> >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> >> >> ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> >> ** or send a message, to
> >> >> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> > ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> > ** unsubscribe
> >> >> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> >> > ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> > ** or send a message, to
> >> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> > ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> > ** unsubscribe
> >> >> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> >> > ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> > ** or send a message, to
> >> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
> >> >>
> >> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
> >> >> ** unsubscribe
> >> >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> >> ** immediately-following link:-
> >> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> >> ** or send a message, to
> >> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > ** and in the Subject line type
> >> > ** unsubscribe
> >> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> > ** immediately-following link:-
> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> > ** or send a message, to
> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
> >>
> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> ** and in the Subject line type
> >> ** unsubscribe
> >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> >> ** immediately-following link:-
> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> >> ** or send a message, to
> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
> >>
> >
> >
> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > ** and in the Subject line type
> > ** unsubscribe
> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> > ** immediately-following link:-
> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> > ** or send a message, to
> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>
> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> ** and in the Subject line type
> ** unsubscribe
> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> ** immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> ** or send a message, to
> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
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