[geocentrism] Re: 2 Axes of rotation - drawing

I  forgot the diagram in question....mine shows the same thing as yours but 
your missing the key elements....

Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:     Ja,
   
  I found it...yes postion one and two are correct!...but again you are making 
a assumption based on a false primise. In-fact i covered this whole thing 
extensively in the last drawing i put forward......your assumtion that the 
nightly is in the annual means you would not see it is as valid as a seeing 
both rotations in a orbital sander....... what don't you understand?

Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
  I only see Jacks drawing..but like i said were you are  wrong is that just 
becuse you see the nightly in that annual does not mean the other would not be 
there...just as in athe case of a radial sander....You are making that 
assumption...that is the bases for your whole argument thus far...?.

j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:     I am not making any assumptions in the 
drawing I just did. Either it represents the camera positions in HC or it does 
not. If it does, then I rest my case, if it does not, than I don't understand 
why not.
  
Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    NO..You are assuming that since the nightly would show up in the annual 
then therefore you would see nothing else..This is not only wrong but 
falsifiable as well!...... I covered this in my last email...but the reason you 
see the nightly paths in the annual is not because the two are 
equivalent...that is the argument they make...the reason the nightly show up in 
the annual is because the 24 hour exposures parallax the nightly axis over the 
course of a year just as the observer does nightly...but it also parallaxes 
another axis you cannot just pretend it is not there simply because the nightly 
one is there..... What you are suggesting would be equivalent to looking a a 
radial sander and only seeing one axis of its rotation...you can't do it both 
axis are apparent and obvious even thought nightly you will only see one over 
the course of a year both must be present or non existent. You see simply 
arguing that the nightly rotation exist in the annual does not solve your
 problem. Again take a radial sander you can spin it on one axis...turn th 
power on, that same axis of spin is there ...BUT ALSO THE SECONDARY AXIS IS AS 
WELL, EVEN THOUGH THE PRIMARY IS THERE TOO!
   
  This is where you are getting confused...simply seeing the nightly in the 
annual does not solve the problem. This is provable and demonstratable even 
using the real stars for real distance.......This is the assumption that many a 
Geocentrist have bought into with fairly good reason...until about a 100 years 
ago no one would have been able to even verify this ..but we can...
  

j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    OK, we both agree that the 24 hour path is radial to the annual axis (such 
that it is pointing as directly as is possible away from the sun) and that the 
initial angle of the camera is irrellevent. I''m saying that the camera is 
changing angle with respect to the axis we are trying to record. See my 
attached diagram.
   
  You will no doubt agree that the 3 cameras, from position 1 to position 2, 
each represent a camera fixed with reguard to the surface of the earth and are 
12 hours apart and each will record opposite ends of the nightly star circles 
because they have each rotated around the nightly axis.
   
  But can we also call this a picture of the 3 cameras at midnight 6 months 
apart? If yes, then they will have recorded the same two points of each nightly 
star circle because all of the dynamics are obviously identical. If this is 
true than the annual star trails will be identical to the nightly star trails, 
because the camera is rotating around the same axis.
   
  JA

Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    Ja,
   
  There is no such thing as a 23.56 hour path and a 24 hour path! ..........The 
only differnce between the two is the number of degress it took to get there 
but that is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that in fact even 
according to HC 24 hours pust the camera in a radial postion to the axis in 
question..The angle of the camera is not relevant either...it is assumed but it 
is also falsifiable a simple experiment will show that is false...IF it is 
false then there is no 23.56 hour path as opposed to the 24 hour path.. ..The 
reason being that you do not have to look at the same angle or the axis in 
question to observe the rotation..The fact that the nightly will also manifest 
itself annualy is not in question either. However,  neither can it mask a 
annual rotaion about the other axis ...That is why we say it would cause a big 
blur over the course of a year............

Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    Ja,
   
  You seem to think how many degrees the earth rotates in 24 hours is relevant? 
..It makes Absolutly no difference! It does not matter if it rotates 360 or 
2000 dgreess...NO difference! ..The only thing that is importaint is that on 24 
hours in HC & GC, regardless of how many dgrees of rotaion in 24 hours or 23 
hours both models aggree  that in 24 hours from midnight to midnight is a 
radial condtion to the axis of rotation in question...we are not limited to 
what time we can take an exposure...You are hung up on how many degrees it 
rotates in in 24 hours v 23.56,  but that is irrelevant because we are not 
looking for a number of degress we are only concered with a radial conditon 
around a axis so as to view the rotation around that axis.  HC does not deny 
that radial conditon exist ..how many degrees of the earth's suposed spin it 
took to dt there is irrelecant we are not measuring days. You are confusing the 
angular displacment for a day with what we are looking for.....Im
 not sweeping it under the rug.......You are appling a irrelevant premise of a 
nuber of degrees of spin in 24 or 23.56 hours to this whole issue and it does 
not affect anything except how you define days it does not define the radial 
condition that exist every 24 hours reguardless of how many degrees of rotation 
it took to get there...even HC would not make the argument you are...it is 
meaningless over the course of a year we are going to take measurments from 
131,00 degrees of rotation total...your objection is irrelevant for what is 
under discussion.........?  Somehow you think we are restricted to what time we 
can take a exposure by defintinon that HC agrees with on 24 hours our exposure 
will be radial to the axis in question..HC does not deny this..so why do you 
and if you do not, then you have no point?......I know exactly what you are 
saying, you just dont see it is irrelevant.  Please keep trying to expain this 
to me so i can figure out where you are getting so
 confused.....im being serious...im racking my brain out here to figure out 
what has got you so mixed up on the angles and degrees of rotation in any time 
period? that is not in question nor does it determine anything......

j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    Allen,
   
  I think you you and I are in absolute agreement on every single detail of the 
"dual axis proof" except one, which of course, makes the difference, and is 
what I've been trying to get accross to you, which you have answered by 
basically telling me to look at a globe and/or sweeping it away without any 
detail other than to repeat things that I already agree with you on. Please 
consider this carefully and prayerfully and with patience. I would prefer to be 
wrong, but am afraid I am not. I have spent allot of time looking at a globe, 
drawing globes, determining what a camera would record with different motions 
and axis's and lengths of axis's, etc.... As have you.
   
   
  That detail in question being: how much does the earth rotate in 24 hours? 
You have said: 1 full 360 degree rotation, which would allow a camera 
(regardless of orientation) to record star trails around the yearly axis, since 
the camera would rotate about the yearly axis.... I say: 1 full rotation plus a 
hair more (something like ~360.9863 degrees), which would allow a camera to 
record only a repeat of the nightly cirlce, since that is the axis the camera 
has rotated along. 
   
  If the earth returns to it's exact location and position and orientation 
every 365 days while  traveling 360 degrees around the sun, then it moves 
0.9863 degrees around the sun per day. So a complete day, midnight to midnight 
is 360.9863 degrees. To check this, lets look at the position in 182 days. 
Midnight on day 182 would be facing practically 180 degrees away from midnight 
on day 1. Your formula would have 182 days times 360 degrees per day = a whole 
integer with no remainder.... therefore your midnight would be facing the exact 
same direction as 182 days earlier, except that we are now on the opposite side 
of the the sun....so you have midnight facing the sun..... midnight does not 
happen in the daytime. My formula would be 182 days times 360.9863 degrees per 
day = a whole integer with a remainder of ~180 degrees... therefore my midnight 
would be facing directly away from the sun, allowing midnight to happen when 
it's dark.
   
  The only way to record a yearly star trail about the annual axis is to have 
the camera rotate about the annual axis.... and there is no way to do this.... 
The only path that moves perpendicular to the annual axis is the 23.56 path, 
but the camera will not rotate. The 24hour path rotates, but only around the 
nightly axis.
   
  If this still doesn't convice you, then please.....please, don't repeat the 
things we agree on, which is everything, except what the camera revolves around 
on the 24hour path.
   
  JA....
  
Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
  

j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:     Jack,
   
  I think your drawing has captured it all, exactly. The green circles could 
also be described as the camera location at 4 different points of the year 
(following the 24hour path), while trying to record a yearly circle, and if you 
look at it that way, you'll see why no annual circle can be recorded....you've 
moved around the same axis as the nightly.... therfeore you'll have only 
recorded the nightly. The red lines show where you would like for your camera 
to be, in order to record an annual circle (because the path is perpendicular 
to the axis), except that those points only exist along a 23hour 56minute path, 
and as shown in a drawing that Allen did, there is no rotation of the camera on 
those paths, so no annual circle can be recorded there either. This is why I 
have dropped out from those supporting this proof. Since the mechanics involved 
make it impossible to record anything other than a nightly trail, the lack of a 
yearly trail in recordings is not proof of anything.
   
  JA...
  
Jack Lewis <jack.lewis@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
          Dear All,
  This is my attempt to explain more graphically Neville's last drawing showing 
the  two axes of rotation.
   
  1    The green circles are a fixed spot on the world shown in four different 
positions traversing the ecliptic path. The NEP is perpendicular to the grey 
ecliptic plane. This illustrates the world's 24 hour rotation. I have tried to 
take great care to get the geometry correct within the limitations of my 
drawing software. 
  2    The green circles also represent the world traversing its annual orbit 
about the NCP. These are shown as red ellipses. The NEP, according to my 
drawing geometry, also traverses the NCP.      
   
  Since there are two rotations happening simultaneously but at very different 
velocities the illustration can only show an NCP rotation (red ellipses) 
extrapolated for a whole year. I value comments by all as to whether I have 
understood the problem or not. I do have a series of 12 illustrations, similar 
to the one below, showing the position of the ecliptic plane every 30 degrees 
about the NCP.  
  
  Jack Lewis
www.classiccarartist.co.uk

    
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