It is very difficult to find someone honest in the CIA. Can you name any? All the ones I know are all in prison or in hiding, or their mouths are bound by legal tape. Official secrets are not there for the purpose of hiding wrong doing, they are there for keeping a nations' secrets. Keeping a nations secrets doesn't prevent civil servants from being prosecuted. Aren't they there to serve the people?
George Washington never told a lie...but he had a secret service.Tell me, do any of the presidents who have run the USA in the last 30 years, done it on the basis of what is best for the people? Would you care to name one?
Who are these wikispooks...I have never heard of them. Are they funded by the CIA...or don't you know... :-).
The CIA torture program was organised long after 9/11. It wasn't about catching immediate imminent terrorist action. It was supposed to be aimed at finding out who the terrorists were, and their links to Al Queda and the perpetrators of the bombing of Twin Towers. It never discovered any imminent plots, as I already said, it didn't share any information at all with anyone, in fact, denied its existence.
Would you support "necessary brutality" towards others. Pray tell us under what circumstances you would carry out torture, what torture would you use, would you do it yourself, or have others do it for you on your own behalf. That is where, what you are saying, leads to, in my opinion.
Perhaps my propoganda is better. Would you say that you have been fed the truth? Can people be fed the truth, or fed lies. I suppose it depends on the gullibility factor, and as I have always said on here I am gullible for a story... :-). Convince me...Smokey Dawg... :-). At least I don't hide behind a pseudonym...
With the kindest of regards. ATB Dougie. On 10/12/14 16:05, Chien Fume wrote:
Peter:
Amazing how you did a Straw Man on what I wrote. Really... this takes some practice. In spite of your uncritical inferences and pole-vaulting to a number of conclusions, perhaps I didn't make myself clear.There's a difference between the system as established in the U.S. Constitution and the way this system has been (is now being) used.Who could possibly agree with all that's been done using the U.S. system? And who really believes that the fellow currently occupying the position of POTUS has the best interests of anyone other than those whom he serves. And can't the same be said of most (but not all) of those who've become POTUS through the years? Yet, haven't there been enough people along the way who respected what the United States Constitution was really about... starting with George Washington, who could easily have become a king.If you can, talk to somebody who has worked in the CIA in a serious position... if they're honest with you at all, they'll tell you the Agency isn't monolithic. There have always been competing groups... and this was true during the OSS days, and the agencies that existed before OSS... going all the way back to the Revolution. For quite some time, the Agency has been dominated by people who are essentially stuck in a strange Reality Tunnel. For a long time, starting with the post-WWII cooperation with the former SS officers and NSDAP scientists, they've been assisting some of the worst groups of people... but that doesn't mean that there aren't opposing voices inside the Agency (although they're now mostly forced to remain silent, looking for an opportunity and hoping for a dramatic change in direction).And exactly whose interests are you serving with your Wikispooks site? Who pays your bills, maintains your website, approves the things you allow to be entered there? Would it happen to be an immensely wealthy Hungarian fellow? The real-life person that Orson Welles parodied in his not-so-successful "Mr. Arkadin"?Are you really any different than those you criticize? For the purposes of discussion, please engage in a thought experiment with a hypothetical situation... Were you to have someone in your custody who had knowledge of the imminent slaughter of someone (or several someones) really close to you... what would you do? Let's say you had only a few hours to prevent the horror. Cigarette to the eyeball, perhaps? Electric shocks to the sensitive parts? Dentist tools to the various nerve clusters? Or would you just let your dear ones be slaughtered?I don't believe you've ever been in a position such as described above, and I doubt that the most pious and vociferous critic of the CIA in this forum ever has been in any position at all that would qualify them to pontificate. But maybe someone has been... and that was the real purpose of my original message... to see if someone would just come out and admit it.Does any of this mean I support unnecessary brutality against others? Of course not.One could add a lot of items to your list. If those are all you can come up with, then again it seems your knowledge is limited to the propaganda you've been fed. Or perhaps you're trained in the rather simple techniques of obfuscation.Also, applying critical inference, presumably you believe that other governments in the world are pure as Snow White. Are you a fan of China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, the large Muslim movement that's rising up all over the world? 'Who do you serve? And who do you trust?' (kludged from one of my favorite spin-offs from the Babylon TV series).Personally, although I'm no longer in America, I'm convinced that the United States Constitution is a singularly unique document. It must be preserved... actually right now, it must be restored to the authority it is supposed to be (not the Presidential fiats, or the whimsical rules of probably-illegal bureaucracies like the IRS, DHS, ATF, and most of the other Alphabet Agencies.There's a long-term effort to destroy the unique United States system of government... most of the time with people openly stating their intentions. Obama and his associates (including the Emmanuel Brothers) have stated their intentions. Eric Holder, heck the whole sick crew and their allies in Wall Street want to turn America into another North Korea or China. What is the Facebook front-man Zukerberg doing in China, praising the atrocious dictatorship there? And what do you know of the torture methods China uses... or that are used in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and many other places?So do your best to go back to my original message and answer the questions asked there.Thank you and have a nice day... Chien FumeOn Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Peter Presland <peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:On 10/12/2014 13:10, Chien Fume wrote: > a system of government that, like it or not, has done more good than harm If you genuinely believe that then we are at the core of the problem. Here are some of the bads: 1. Treating the South American continent as a collection of vassal states through much of the 20th century with a continuing fierce opposition to any gestures of independence from their varying current states of vassal-hood. 2. Raising every North Korean city to the ground through the early 1950's, killing millions both North and South in the process. 3. Killing 3 million Vietnamese and poisoning both population and land for decades - to what purpose was that repulsive episode directed? 4. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine costing millions more lives and the destruction of ancient cultures. And they are just the tip of the 20th century iceberg of 'do things our way or else' threats menaces and similarly dirty covert operations, which continue with increasing desperation. Don't you think the Empire might just have something badly wrong? or is it all going to plan? I'd be interested in your views. And while you're at it, maybe a similar list of those 'goods' you see. PeterP