[bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
- From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:49:16 -1000
I don't think the issue is about garbled stuff, it's about the
meaningful headers that get dumped.
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pam Quinn
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 3:20 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
But I thought the stripper only removed headers if they repeated, so
therefore garbled headings were left anyway. > Pam
Original message:
>
>At the risk of being ostracized and having none of my future
submissions
>validated, let me make a few comments from the point of view of a
speech
>reader.
>
>Despite the excellent scans now possible with the latest ocr engines,
>there
>can still be a large number of mistakes in the headers. While I remove
the
>headers in the books I scan, most submitters do not, and I do not think
all
>validaters are as dedicated as those on this list. If the headers are
not
>stripped, the reader using speech could be subjected to three hundred
or
>more phrases such as 'LHC AOLDM5PICLER5'.
>While these can be removed in Kurzweil and Open Book, not all readers
have
>these programs.
>
>Perhaps before removing the stripper completely some method of
>retaining page numbers and chapter headings could be found.
>I recently downloaded and read one of my submissions in Daisy format
>and
>all page numbers and chapter headings were there.
>Why there and not in others? I don't know, but there must be a way of
>solving the problem.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 06:28 PM 7/22/05, you wrote:
>
>>Hello:
>>
>>I would like to here from people who disagree with me.
>>Let me know why you think the current setup makes sense.
>>
>>I do not mean for people to play devil's advocate with this. I'm
>>asking if anyone seriously disagrees with the centiments expressed
>>over the last 30 hours.
>>
>>(There is a method to my madness)
>>
>>-- Rui (who is probably liked at Benetech right now as much as the
>>plague)
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Deborah Kent Stein"
>><dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
>>To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:26 PM
>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Dear Charlyn and Bookshare community,
>>>
>>>I think a petition is an excellent idea. Charlyn, would you like to
>>>put it together? Rui, would you put it on the Bookshare Scans site?
>>>
>>>I also think we should select a day to make phone calls and send
emails to
>>>the Bookshare staff calling on them to turn off the stripper. How
about
>>>Thursday, July 28, one week after this most recent stripper
>>>discussion began.
>>>
>>>We need to take in the fact that, as Bookshare volunteers and users,
>>>we must have direct say on policy issues. Right now this list is
>>>virtually the only vehicle we have for reaching the staff, and it is
>>>clearly ineffective. The stripper issue highlights a need for a more
>>>formalized means of communication. Maybe we should develop an
>>>advisory committee which can bring concerns to the staff and have a
>>>real voice in policymaking.
>>>
>>>As blind people, most of us have grown up with the sense that we're
>>>lucky to get whatever reading matter is offered to us. We had better
>>>be appreciative and not complain. On the title page of every book
>>>from the National Library Service we read that the book has been
>>>produced for the blind and physically handicapped "with the kind
>>>permission of the publisher." That line about "the kind permission"
>>>says so much! Do sighted people need anyone's kind permission in
>>>order to read? I AM in fact extraordinarily grateful to the
>>>volunteers and others who have spent countless hours putting books
>>>into Braille and recorded formats for us, and to those who have
>>>worked to change copyright laws and make our special-format books
>>>possible! Most of us would not be literate, educated, contributing
>>>members of society without their help! But I think that our lifelong
>>>dependence upon others to provide us with books, and the constant
>>>feeling that we must be grateful and that we can't expect too much,
>>>do take a toll.
>>>
>>>Bookshare is different. Bookshare is a program which is not only FOR
>>>us, but BY us. We, the volunteers, determine what books go into the
>>>collection, and we ourselves make them available. We are not "only
>>>volunteers" who have no right to determine policy. We are the
>>>backbone of the program - a program which is created to meet our
>>>needs and those of other blind and print-disabled people. The
>>>Bookshare staff are not users of Bookshare materials. They do not
>>>live with the inaccessibility of print; they don't experience our
>>>issues from the inside. It is absolutely essential that they listen
>>>to what we have to say.
>>>
>>>Bookshare is an incredible program, and I believe in it utterly. It
>>>has the potential to narrow the print gap for us as no other program
>>>ever has before. But we need to take a stand and insist that it be
>>>the quality program we all deserve.
>>>
>>>Debbie
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:11 AM
>>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>
>>>
>>>>Maybe we could put together a pteition of some sort and put a notice
>>>>on the volunteer website as well to see if we could get enough
>>>>people to sign it to send to bookshare requesting them to stop using
>>>>the program.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pam Quinn
>>>>Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:02 PM
>>>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>We take pride in our submissions and I just don't think a lot of the
>>>>bookshare staff understands how angry and frustrated we are when we
>>>>see that our submissions have been mangled. And for what? I just
>>>>don't get it. Why do they insist on holding on to that useless
>>>>program that nobody wants? Seems to me if anything, dropping it
>>>>would mean one less step and less work in putting the books on the
>>>>site.
>>>>
>>>>I use chapter headings for my breaking points in .mp3 files too,
>>>>when I'm lucky enough to have them.
>>>>
>>>>It might not be our decision and they might not want to listen to
>>>>us, but that would be unfortunate, because the volunteers and
>>>>subscribers have a major role in determining the future of
>>>>bookshare.
>>>>
>>>>Pam
>>>>
>>>>Original message:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >I have seriously considered not submitting some books I have
>>>> >scanned just because I thought they would be of little use after
>>>> >the stripper
>>>>finished
>>>> >with them. I put a lot of work in to what I submit and it is
>>>> >really upsetting to see the final result when my original looked
>>>> >so nice, and
>>>>that
>>>> >is only a volunteer's view. I also am upset by the messes that I
>>>> >come accross when I am reading, even for pleasure. I use the
>>>> >chapter
>>>>headings
>>>> >as my MP3 creation breaking points, so if they aren't there I have
>>>> >a
>>>>big
>>>> >mess!
>>>> >
>>>> >I don't really like throwing fits, and I won't on this list
>>>> >because it seems to serve little purpose, but the fits are
>>>> >completely justified.
>>>> >
>>>> >If i submitted a book in DAISY and BRF format instead of in RTF
>>>> >would the normal automated processes be skipped? That is the only
>>>> >thing I can
>>>>think
>>>> >of to rescue books where the headers, headings, and page numbers
>>>> >are invaluable.
>>>> >
>>>> >Sarah Van Oosterwijck
>>>> >Assistive Technology Trainer http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
>>>> >----- Original Message -----
>>>> >From: "Deborah Kent Stein" <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
>>>> >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:10 PM
>>>> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hear, hear! I agree 200%!
>>>> >>
>>>> >> We have been telling the Bookshare staff about our concerns,
>>>> >> politely
>>>>
>>>> >> but firmly, literally for years. Despite all the talk, nothing
>>>> >> has changed. I am beginning to think we need to take stronger
>>>> >> action. We
>>>>
>>>> >> ARE volunteers.
>>>> >> We do not have to contribute the thousands of hours we put into
>>>> >> this program. And Bookshare cannot survive without us. Do we
>>>> >> need to say
>>>>we
>>>> >> will have to stop scanning and validating until we know that
>>>> >> someone
>>>>out
>>>> >> there is really listening to us, and taking action? It should
>>>> >> not
>>>>have
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> come down to threats and strikes, but many of us are at our
>>>> >> wit's
>>>>end.
>>>> >> What
>>>> >> is it going to take to turn off the stripper and stop mangling
>>>> >> the
>>>>books
>>>> >> we
>>>> >> work so hard to make available?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Debbie
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: "Rui" <goldwave@xxxxxxx>
>>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:16 AM
>>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] stripper and colatteral damage
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Good Afternoon:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> At the bookshare users meeting at NFB, I made it very clear to
>>>> >>> Jim (like
>>>> >> he didn't know already) the issues with the stripper and why i
>>>> >> think it should be removed.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The whole concept of the stripper bothers me, not just the fact
>>>> >>> it does
>>>> >> more than it's supposed too.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Its very reason for being agrivates me.
>>>> >>> Regular print books have headers, some have footers, that is
>>>> >>> part of
>>>>
>>>> >>> a
>>>> >> print book.
>>>> >>> If we want digital copies of print books then, take the good
>>>> >>> with the bad.
>>>> >>> Do not sanitize the book to make it more access technology
friendly.
>>>>
>>>> >>> The
>>>> >> very fact that is accessible already does that.
>>>> >>> If i don't want to read the headers, i can strip them out
>>>> >>> myself or use my
>>>> >> own automated tool to do so.
>>>> >>> However, If by chance I do want them there, I simply do not
>>>> >>> get that
>>>> >> option with Bookshare!!!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Words do not do justice to how much this issue ticks me off.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Bottomline, this process does not serve the community that it
>>>> >>> was designed
>>>> >> to assist.
>>>> >>> -- Rui
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > From: Mike Pietruk <pietruk@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> >>> > Date: 2005/07/21 Thu AM 11:00:39 EDT
>>>> >>> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> >>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Pam
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > agreed! It's inconsistent and unpredictable. And the
>>>> >>> > problems relative to it have been discussed repeatedly.
>>>> >>> > The Powers-that-be are all too aware of the damage the
stripper
>>>>has
>>>> >> caused
>>>> >>> > but seem to have shoved it on the back burner probably due to
>>>> >>> > more
>>>>
>>>> >>> > pressing issues to deal with. It is a shame that it cannot be
>>>> >>> > dealt with; but Marissa, prior to her leaving, pretty much
>>>> >>> > outlined where it stands. So I wouldn't expect much change
>>>> >>> > regarding the stripper as any change would require some sort
>>>> >>> > of policy change plus programmer action. Conceptually, the
>>>> >>> > stripper makes sense; practically, it has been a
>>>> >> dismal
>>>> >>> > failure breading as much (or perhaps even more) than it has
>>>> >>> > repaired. It's not our decision as we are volunteers, not
>>>> >>> > decision-makers.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>>> >> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date:
>>>>7/19/2005
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Other related posts:
