Hi, Jill. Asking that the book not be put through the stripper does no good. It's an automated process that all books undergo without any intervention. Take care. Julie Morales inlovewithchrist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Windows/MSN Messenger (but not email): mercy0421@xxxxxxxxxxx ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill O'Connell" <jillocon@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 5:50 PM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians? I downloaded the latest book I had submitted and although I had eliminated the headers, I had preserved the page numbers with a blank line and none of the numbers were present. I even stated in the comments not to put the book through the stripper and explained what I had done. How can we not be upset? ----- Original Message ----- From: "E." <thoth93@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 5:35 PM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians? > Yet another survey? Didn't we do this recently? > > E. > > Is it the heat or have I been here before? > > At 07:09 PM 7/22/2005, you wrote: > >>Hmmm. I'm not quite sure understand your message, >>Janice. (It's probably the heat muddling my brain). Am >>I correct in thinking that you're asking us for a >>little patience and that the problem is being worked >>on, or that you're planning to put out a survey to all >>members, volunteers or not, to see if anyone is >>opposed to eliminating the stripper or if everyone >>agrees that it doesn't seem to serve a function? >> >>Certainly page numbers are important, and sometimes >>when they're on the top line with the stripper they >>get deleted, although my understanding is that that >>isn't supposed to happen. >> >>If indeed bookshare is doing something about the >>stripper, either planning a survey as there have been >>before or working on how to elliminate it, we can be >>patient for a while longer -- but itis a problem that >>has been discussed for at least a year that I >>remember, and possibly longer (heat, again). >> >>Cindy >>-- Janice Carter <Janice.C@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> > Rui, despite your best efforts, you will always be >> > special to >> > Bookshare.org's ongoing growth and development. >> > (Yes, I met Rui in >> > person on numerous occasions at the NFB 05 >> > Conference.) >> > >> > We might ask that you give us a little more time to >> > organize all of the >> > great feedback we received at the past few >> > conferences and submit to the >> > larger group for additional comments and suggestions >> > as we plan for the >> > next year of Bookshare.org. >> > >> > Janice >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On >> > Behalf Of Rui >> > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 3:28 PM >> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Where are those >> > contrarians? >> > >> > Hello: >> > >> > I would like to here from people who disagree with >> > me. >> > Let me know why you think the current setup makes >> > sense. >> > >> > I do not mean for people to play devil's advocate >> > with this. >> > I'm asking if anyone seriously disagrees with the >> > centiments expressed >> > over >> > the last 30 hours. >> > >> > (There is a method to my madness) >> > >> > -- Rui (who is probably liked at Benetech right now >> > as much as the >> > plague) >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Deborah Kent Stein" <dkent5817@xxxxxxx> >> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:26 PM >> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and >> > colatteral damage >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Dear Charlyn and Bookshare community, >> > > >> > > I think a petition is an excellent idea. Charlyn, >> > would you like to >> > put >> > > it >> > > together? Rui, would you put it on the Bookshare >> > Scans site? >> > > >> > > I also think we should select a day to make phone >> > calls and send >> > emails to >> > > the Bookshare staff calling on them to turn off >> > the stripper. How >> > about >> > > Thursday, July 28, one week after this most recent >> > stripper discussion >> > > began. >> > > >> > > We need to take in the fact that, as Bookshare >> > volunteers and users, >> > we >> > > must >> > > have direct say on policy issues. Right now this >> > list is virtually >> > the >> > > only >> > > vehicle we have for reaching the staff, and it is >> > clearly ineffective. >> > >> > > The >> > > stripper issue highlights a need for a more >> > formalized means of >> > > communication. Maybe we should develop an >> > advisory committee which >> > can >> > > bring concerns to the staff and have a real voice >> > in policymaking. >> > > >> > > As blind people, most of us have grown up with the >> > sense that we're >> > lucky >> > > to >> > > get whatever reading matter is offered to us. We >> > had better be >> > > appreciative >> > > and not complain. On the title page of every book >> > from the National >> > > Library >> > > Service we read that the book has been produced >> > for the blind and >> > > physically >> > > handicapped "with the kind permission of the >> > publisher." That line >> > about >> > > "the kind permission" says so much! Do sighted >> > people need anyone's >> > kind >> > > permission in order to read? I AM in fact >> > extraordinarily grateful to >> > the >> > > volunteers and others who have spent countless >> > hours putting books >> > into >> > > Braille and recorded formats for us, and to those >> > who have worked to >> > > change >> > > copyright laws and make our special-format books >> > possible! Most of us >> > >> > > would >> > > not be literate, educated, contributing members of >> > society without >> > their >> > > help! But I think that our lifelong dependence >> > upon others to provide >> > us >> > > with books, and the constant feeling that we must >> > be grateful and that >> > we >> > > can't expect too much, do take a toll. >> > > >> > > Bookshare is different. Bookshare is a program >> > which is not only FOR >> > us, >> > > but BY us. We, the volunteers, determine what >> > books go into the >> > > collection, >> > > and we ourselves make them available. We are not >> > "only volunteers" >> > who >> > > have >> > > no right to determine policy. We are the backbone >> > of the program - a >> > > program which is created to meet our needs and >> > those of other blind >> > and >> > > print-disabled people. The Bookshare staff are >> > not users of Bookshare >> > > materials. They do not live with the >> > inaccessibility of print; they >> > don't >> > > experience our issues from the inside. It is >> > absolutely essential >> > that >> > > they >> > > listen to what we have to say. >> > > >> > > Bookshare is an incredible program, and I believe >> > in it utterly. It >> > has >> > > the >> > > potential to narrow the print gap for us as no >> > other program ever has >> > > before. But we need to take a stand and insist >> > that it be the quality >> > > program we all deserve. >> > > >> > > Debbie >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:11 AM >> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and >> > colatteral damage >> > > >> > > >> > >> Maybe we could put together a pteition of some >> > sort and put a notice >> > on >> > >> the volunteer website as well to see if we could >> > get enough people to >> > >> sign it to send to bookshare requesting them to >> > stop using the >> > program. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On >> > Behalf Of Pam Quinn >> > >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:02 PM >> > >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and >> > colatteral damage >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> We take pride in our submissions and I just don't >> > think a lot of the >> > >> bookshare staff understands how angry and >> > frustrated we are when we >> > see >> > >> that our submissions have been mangled. And for >> > what? I just don't >> > get >> > >> it. Why do they insist on holding on to that >> > useless program that >> > nobody >> > >> wants? Seems to me if anything, dropping it would >> > mean one less step >> > and >> > >> less work in putting the books on the site. >> > >> >> > >> I use chapter headings for my breaking points in >> > .mp3 files too, when >> > >> I'm lucky enough to have them. >> > >> >> > >> It might not be our decision and they might not >> > want to listen to us, >> > >> but that would be unfortunate, because the >> > volunteers and subscribers >> > >> have a major role in determining the future of >> > bookshare. >> > >> >> > >> Pam >> > >> >> > >> Original message: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >I have seriously considered not submitting some >> > books I have scanned >> > >> >just >> > >> >because I thought they would be of little use >> > after the stripper >> > >> finished >> > >> >with them. I put a lot of work in to what I >> > submit and it is really >> > >> >upsetting to see the final result when my >> > original looked so nice, >> > and >> > >> that >> > >> >is only a volunteer's view. I also am upset by >> > the messes that I >> > come >> > >> >accross when I am reading, even for pleasure. I >> > use the chapter >> > >> headings >> > >> >as my MP3 creation breaking points, so if they >> > aren't there I have a >> > >> big >> > >> >mess! >> > >> > >> > >> >I don't really like throwing fits, and I won't >> > on this list because >> > it >> > >> >seems to serve little purpose, but the fits are >> > completely >> > justified. >> > >> > >> > >> >If i submitted a book in DAISY and BRF format >> > instead of in RTF >> > would >> > >> >the >> > >> >normal automated processes be skipped? That is >> > the only thing I can >> > >> think >> > >> >of to rescue books where the headers, headings, >> > and page numbers are >> > >> >invaluable. >> > >> > >> > >> >Sarah Van Oosterwijck >> > >> >Assistive Technology Trainer >> > http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> > >> >From: "Deborah Kent Stein" <dkent5817@xxxxxxx> >> > >> >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > >> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:10 PM >> > >> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and >> > colatteral damage >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Hear, hear! I agree 200%! >> > >> >> >> > >> >> We have been telling the Bookshare staff about >> > our concerns, >> > politely >> > >> >> > >> >> but firmly, literally for years. Despite all >> > the talk, nothing >> > has >> > >> >> changed. I am beginning to think we need to >> > take stronger action. >> > We >> > >> >> > >> >> ARE volunteers. >> > >> >> We do not have to contribute the thousands of >> > hours we put into >> > this >> > >> >> program. And Bookshare cannot survive without >> > us. Do we need to >> > say >> > >> we >> > >> >> will have to stop scanning and validating >> > until we know that >> > someone >> > >> out >> > >> >> there is really listening to us, and taking >> > action? It should not >> > >> have >> > >> >> to >> > >> >> come down to threats and strikes, but many of >> > us are at our wit's >> > >> end. >> > >> >> What >> > >> >> is it going to take to turn off the stripper >> > and stop mangling the >> > >> books >> > >> >> we >> > >> >> work so hard to make available? >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Debbie >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >> >> From: "Rui" <goldwave@xxxxxxx> >> > >> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:16 AM >> > >> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] stripper and >> > colatteral damage >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >>> Good Afternoon: >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> At the bookshare users meeting at NFB, I made >> > it very clear to >> > Jim >> > >> >>> (like >> > >> >> he didn't know already) the issues with the >> > stripper and why i >> > think >> > >> >> it should be removed. >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> The whole concept of the stripper bothers me, >> > not just the fact >> > it >> > >> >>> does >> > >> >> more than it's supposed too. >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> Its very reason for being agrivates me. >> > >> >>> Regular print books have headers, some have >> > footers, that is part >> > of >> > >> >> > >> >>> a >> > >> >> print book. >> > >> >>> If we want digital copies of print books >> > then, take the good with >> > >> >>> the >> > >> >>> bad. >> > >> >>> Do not sanitize the book to make it more >> > access technology >> > friendly. >> > >> >> > >> >>> The >> > >> >> very fact that is accessible already does >> > that. >> > >> >>> If i don't want to read the headers, i can >> > strip them out myself >> > or >> > >> >>> use >> > >> >>> my >> > >> >> own automated tool to do so. >> > >> >>> However, If by chance I do want them there, >> > I simply do not get >> > >> >>> that >> > >> >> option with Bookshare!!! >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> Words do not do justice to how much this >> > issue ticks me off. >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> Bottomline, this process does not serve the >> > community that it was >> > >> >>> designed >> > >> >> to assist. >> > >> >>> -- Rui >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > From: Mike Pietruk <pietruk@xxxxxxxxx> >> > >> >>> > Date: 2005/07/21 Thu AM 11:00:39 EDT >> > >> >>> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >> >>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > Pam >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > agreed! It's inconsistent and >> > unpredictable. And the problems >> > >> >>> > relative >> > >> >>> > to it have been discussed repeatedly. >> > >> >>> > The Powers-that-be are all too aware of the >> > damage the stripper >> > >> has >> > >> >> caused >> > >> >>> > but seem to have shoved it on the back >> > burner probably due to >> > more >> > >> >> > >> >>> > pressing issues to deal with. It is a shame >> > that it cannot be >> > >> >>> > dealt with; but Marissa, prior to her >> > leaving, pretty much >> > >> >>> > outlined where it stands. So I wouldn't >> > expect much change >> > >> >>> > regarding the stripper as any change would >> > require some sort of >> > >> >>> > policy change plus programmer action. >> > Conceptually, the >> > stripper >> > >> >>> > makes sense; practically, it has been a >> > >> >> dismal >> > >> >>> > failure breading as much (or perhaps even >> > more) than it has >> > >> >>> > repaired. It's not our decision as we are >> > volunteers, not >> > >> >>> > decision-makers. >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> > >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> > >> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> > >> >> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 >> > - Release Date: >> > >> 7/19/2005 >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/55 - Release Date: 7/21/2005 > >