Yes - you've pretty much got the picture It's not just proposals, it's also the specification and design documents that go to the customer once the business has been won. While we have been getting great feedback from our customers about the documentation we provide, it's impossible to determine that it is a significant reason for a 'win' or even continued buisness. Tbe Account Managers certainly find it easier to be delivering a pitch to a prospect or an existing customer when they aren't embarrassed by the quality of the Proposal they are submitting. The US counterparts do not have a view of the value of documentation at all, and often have to be convinced that they should even give their customers an Excel spreadsheet. There were no such documentation quality procedures in this company when I arrived and it has been easy to look good just by having an understanding of what they should be doing. So I haven't quite go them to a Marketing review stage yet, but at least they have the right 'legals' now. They do have a technical review now. for that reason its been a great project for me to work on. What I tell my Sales and Presales people is that the document is going to meet far more people in their prospects organisation than they will; so you want it to make a good first impression. An in the same way that they wouldn't go to a customer meeting in their house renovating clothes, they shouldn't send a shabby document either. On the Sales side, people are reporting that customers are more willing to have the conversation, even if we lost the bid. On the Delivery side we are finding customers have more faith and understanding, and a belief that we can fix the problems when things go wrong. That appears to be a shift in providing better quality documentation. It's like the wheels would have fallen off for anyone, rather than "these guys can't get anything right" attitude. regards Suzy >> This is a Sales organisation and the technical documentation that is produced is sent as part of a vendor solution. It needs to be of high quality. Ah, Suzy, so one of my premises was not true. From what you have said, you are talking about sales proposals going out to customers of your products. Does your organisation have an editor? I would be surprised that any organisation would allow documents to go out externally to potential customers without thorough review. Who reviews them? I would think your marketing department would have something to say about this. If this IS the case, and following through on Warren's idea, let some bad proposals through, then tee up some of the engineers to ask for you back when the sales are lost. However, you will have to be able to demonstrate that sales are lost, and in my experience of buying products this way, bad proposals don't make a huge difference. No-one expects to really understand the proposal - they just skim it for key points. All sorts of other prejudices come into play long before the quality of the document, such as price, functionality, contract conditions, how good the presentation is, and how sexy the sales person is. (Oh, there you go again Christine, Janice will slap you again. She thinks you don't have "professional pride". She thinks you are slack. Ah well. ;-)) Christine