(VICT) Re: New member and I clicker
- From: Jill Gross <jgross@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 04:41:50 -0400 (EDT)
Julie, you make some very good points. An adult dog is the sum of it's
prior experiences just like a human. You have no idea what you are getting
in terms of behavior with a shelter dog. I have owned and fostered many
rescues. In doing so, I have gotten quite a lot exposure to serious
problems such as severe separation anxiety and fear biting. For example,
one of the adult salukis I rescued had terrible separation anxiety and an
intense aversion to crates. After some investigating, I found out that
Phantom had lived through a kennel fire. Well, no wonder he was so fearful
of being confined and left alone. After tracking the background of another
dog that was a fear biter, I learned that he had been shot and that he had
frequently been chased and beaten by farmers in the area where he had been
found. Most of the time you can't find out what kinds of hardships a
shelter dog has edured. I like the idea of taking an unwanted animal and
giving it a home, but you would have to be so careful in considering one
for guide work.
Jill
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, Julie J. wrote:
> Diane,
>
> I am definitely in favor of shelter dogs. Both of my guides came from
> shelters and most of my pets have as well. There are a lot of very
> excellent dogs that need a home.
>
> But with that said... you are really taking a gamble with a shelter dog,
> especially with an adult. There is no way to know exactly what breed you
> are getting. I have no problem with mixes. I think there is something to
> be said for natural selection and the healthiest surviving. However some
> breeds are more susceptible to certain temperament traits and health issues.
> I think having a complete picture of what you are working with will better
> prepare you for achieving a better outcome. then with adult dogs you have a
> whole new array of concerns because of socialization issues.
>
> I got Tia from a shelter at five weeks old. The information I was given was
> that she was a coonhound mix and would probably get to be 50 to 60 pounds.
> She was that size at 6 months old. She ended up being around 90 pounds. If
> I had known she was going to be that big I think things would have turned
> out differently.
>
> So I don't know what the answer is. I guess maybe I wish there were
> statistics on success rates among shelter dogs vs. specifically bred dogs
> turning out as guides. I don't know of anything like that though.
>
> Julie
> http://www.livingblind.com/eml
> Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and
> those who matter don't mind.
>
> Dr. Seuss
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DIANNE B. PHELPS AND PRIMROSE" <d.bphelps@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:28 PM
> Subject: (VICT) Re: New member and I clicker
>
>
>> Julie,
>>
>> Your thoughts and work on this issue are so interesting to me. I think one
>> of the reasons the schools don't do better at this is that perhaps, the
>> breed or breed combination does not produce a greater percentage of
>> successful guides which makes this all viable on a production basis. What
>> I
>> would like to see the schools consider is looking within the animal
>> shelters
>> to see if any dogs tere had the correct make-up to become a guide. In that
>> way, they could use possible other breeds.
>>
>> I have always been rather awe-struck by those who train their own dogs,
>> and
>> now, GDB is looking at having blind persons become trainers, an idea I
>> feel
>> is also a good one. It is just not the same when a sighted person puts on
>> a
>> blind fold because they can take it off when they get stuck. We cannot.
>>
>> Continued good luck to you and others who are training their own dogs.
>>
>> Dianne and Primrose
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Julie J." <jlcrane@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:20 AM
>> Subject: (VICT) Re: New member and I clicker
>>
>>
>>> Jill,
>>>
>>> I have owner trained a lab mix. My best guess is that she is mixed with
>>> greyhound. This is just a guess based on her physical features and
>>> personality. In harness she doesn't like to be bothered much by people.
>>> Most often she will turn her head away when someone reaches to pet her.
>>>
>>> I have had to encourage her to be food motivated. When I first got her
>>> she
>>> really didn't care much for treats. She enjoys them now, but still is
>>> not
>>> overly food driven. We recently went to an Easter egg/candy hunt. The
>>> kids
>>> all immediately informed me that Belle was going to eat the candy off the
>>> ground and it was going to make her sick and on and on and on. Gotta
>>> love
>>> the kid drama! LOL I knew better. She didn't even sniff at the candy.
>>>
>>> I also do not have her stop at the up curb. I started training that way
>>> and
>>> realized very quickly that it was annoying. Now she will just hesitate a
>>> bit directly before the step up. Much smoother for us both.
>>>
>>> I love that everything she has been trained to do is a direct result of
>>> what
>>> works best for us. The middle man has been cut out, so to speak. For me
>>> owner training was what I needed to do.
>>>
>>> Do you have a particular breed in mind?
>>>
>>> Julie
>>> http://www.livingblind.com/eml
>>> Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter
>>> and
>>> those who matter don't mind.
>>>
>>> Dr. Seuss
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jill Gross" <jgross@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:27 AM
>>> Subject: (VICT) Re: New member and I clicker
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jo, I would guess that you probably like the idea of selecting your own
>>>> dog for training. I think that is the greatest factor for me. I would
>>>> like
>>>> to pick my breed based on my research and I would like find a dog witht
>>>> he
>>>> personality traits that I like in a service dog. I have always been very
>>>> disappointed in the very limited number of breeds utilized by most of
>>>> the
>>>> guide dog schools. I know many people who have labs as guides and they
>>>> are
>>>> thrilled with them. I don't particularly care for them and feel that
>>>> they
>>>> have some important traits that decrease there desirability as guides,
>>>> ie.
>>>> they are very social and they are extremely food oriented. There are so
>>>> many fabulous breeds out there and I have have never understood why some
>>>> of them have never been used by the schools. I know there is a small
>>>> school that uses vislas and Leader will use the occasional bouvier or
>>>> boxer.
>>>>
>>>> I "untrain" my guides to stop at the up-curb on street crossings. I do
>>>> most of my travelling in the city where people often drive wrecklessly.
>>>> I
>>>> want my butt and my dog's butt in the street as little as possible. I
>>>> have
>>>> always been good able knowing where the up-curbs are, so I find it safer
>>>> for us to get out of the street quickly. I have always trained my dogs
>>>> to
>>>> do other things, some that are practical and some that are fun. I have
>>>> also found that the dogs that are trained by the schools tend to be
>>>> unruly
>>>> in the house. I have had to do significant in-home training with all but
>>>> one of my dogs. I have often wondered how the nondog person who gets a
>>>> guide handles a guide who wrecks their house.
>>>>
>>>> Jill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Jo Clayson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What would you like to do with your dog that the dogs in schools are
>>>>> not
>>>>> trained for?
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting question. I've never had a dog from a school, and though I
>>>>> know
>>>>> a few people personally that have, I'm not really familiar with
>>>>> specifically
>>>>> what behaviors are taught, or not taught.
>>>>>
>>>>> Things I teach my dogs:
>>>>> Tricks: shake hands, roll over, choosing the correct hand in response
>>>>> to
>>>>> a
>>>>> question, speak, etc. Both my dogs and I have fun with these.
>>>>> Teaching
>>>>> a
>>>>> trick is a good way for me to try out a different training method....if
>>>>> I
>>>>> really goof up and my dog doesn't do a perfect "play dead" it's not
>>>>> potentially life threatening for me or my dog. Also, if my dog has
>>>>> been
>>>>> distracted and needs to focus back on me, tricks are often a good way
>>>>> to
>>>>> get
>>>>> that focus back. Simply because they are tricks and fun, there isn't
>>>>> the
>>>>> tension in my voice that so easily communicates to my dog, like when I
>>>>> might
>>>>> tell her to "leave it" , "quiet" or "sit". A dog that does a few
>>>>> tricks
>>>>> can
>>>>> also delight other people, and help those who are hesitant or a bit
>>>>> fearful
>>>>> around dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Search & rescue: though we are not part of a search team, I want my
>>>>> dogs
>>>>> and
>>>>> I to be able to work together in this way. I live on 29 acres of land
>>>>> in
>>>>> a
>>>>> rather remote area with thousands of acres of undeveloped land
>>>>> adjacent.
>>>>> Should a guest here, or a hunter get lost, or should I be injured and
>>>>> folks
>>>>> are looking for me, I want my dogs to be able to assist in the initial
>>>>> search.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agility - we don't compete, but do this at home for fun, physical
>>>>> conditioning, and for building teamwork, self-control, and physical
>>>>> skills.
>>>>>
>>>>> "go to the bathroom" - take me to a public restroom . For a dog with a
>>>>> keen
>>>>> sense of smell, this seems to be a fairly easy task.
>>>>>
>>>>> Find my stuff: When we are away from home I may have a duffle bag,
>>>>> back
>>>>> pack, jacket , bucket of tools, etc that I set down. Usually I know
>>>>> where
>>>>> they are, but sometimes I forget, or am "bleary brained" with chemical
>>>>> exposure and it's handy to have my dog take me to my stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Go to the car: as I don't drive, and ride with many different people,
>>>>> and
>>>>> some of the families have more than one vehicle, I sometimes can't
>>>>> remember
>>>>> what vehicle I'm looking for or where it is parked. Kita does fairly
>>>>> well
>>>>> already in small parking lots. Zoomer could even find the vehicle in a
>>>>> very
>>>>> large lot. It's also been handy for the driver a few times who forgot
>>>>> where
>>>>> they parked!
>>>>>
>>>>> There are probably others. Often my dogs have figured out something
>>>>> on
>>>>> their own that is helpful to me, so I reward and encourage it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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