[THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
- From: "Rob Beekmans" <R.Beekmans@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 18:57:30 +0200
oke oke don't have to scream......5 posts a day,that's within my
limit...hehe
can't we start a forever disussion list?
grx
Rob
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Jim Kenzig [mailto:jimkenz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 juli 2003 17:37
Aan: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Onderwerp: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
CAN WE PLEASE STOP THIS THREAD! It is getting way off topic. If
people can't start to control themselves and limit their posting I will
have to set a limit of 5 posts per day per person or make the list
moderated approval for all messages. Or I could just start banning
abusers.
That would be unfortunate.
Regards,
Jim Kenzig
Moderator
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Lucas Boyken
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:28 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
I agree, I have infact several users using Linux at home
and swear by it. You have made a great point, something else I need to
consider while making a final judgement (one day).
Thank you,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Reese
[mailto:GReese@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:43 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
you don't need a full time IT person to run
Linux. That's a myth.
I run Linux at home and my family uses it more
than me. My wife is not a tech. She is the average power user. When
she first saw it all she asked was "Where's my email, web browser, and
word processor?" I showed her and she has been running fine with it for
almost a year now. She hasn't had to call me yet. They play games,
listen to music, etc. My wife said it's like having a mac it runs so
well (whole other debate there)
Most small business can get a small Linux
operation going and then grab a computer science major from the local
area to help out every so often. The local college here does just that
and advertises it through their small business workshops they do. It's
cheap convenient help for the businesses and good experience for the
students.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucas Boyken
[mailto:lboyken@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:22 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
All well made points, however, Linux
still isn't the standard for businesses here in America. While in
Europe, I didn't see that much Linux (Unix and/or dirivatives) being
used as oppossed to Windows. I believe the comment made earlier that it
is kind of a crap shoot what you'll end up with in an IT Dept. because
usually the Techies aren't the ones buying the software/hardware
platforms.
As far as costs goes, you are forgetting
the hidden costs of Linux implementations. In a small business
environment, how many can afford to keep a full time IT person able to
manipulate the source code to fix problems, etc. This is the problem
that I see. MS Windows is pretty stable, allows you to add many
different software suites, and is fairly easy to use, install, and so
on.
With that said, what is better... I
haven't decided in my mind yet. Many people in this thread have made
some excellent points, on both sides. The jury is still out...
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical
Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Beekmans
[mailto:R.Beekmans@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:57 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
oke, let's also get involved in this
thread....
We have customers running with linux
servers (mail, File, Print and Fax services) that are running for months
now without any issues....
...and I can't say that about the
Windows servers.....
Lucas wrote:
Windows has a larger market share and is
used for more applications at this point in time than Linux.
__
Do you really think that any small
company, about 30 users will care about the market share of
Microsoft.....they want functionality...
They ask us we want mail on each
workplace and a server to store data and perhaps if possible fax from
each workstation.....
We calculated this for a customer with
20 workstation to compare the upgrade from NT4 / Exchange 5.5 to Windows
2000/Exchange 2000 and compared it with the upgrade costs to Linux. the
difference is 7800 Euro's....for what, what extra usefull functionality
does Microsoft with Windows and Exchange give oppossed to Linux?
also he wrote:
However, with open source does come
problems that you don't have in a closed environment that Microsoft
enjoys. We must remain objective
___
wonder where all those bugs come from
with windows and Exchange???? you wrote to much cooks in one kitchen etc
etc, doesn't this apply to Microsoft too? only there they work for one
company........With the open source communitiy you have more objective
people looking at changes becasue they don't work for the same comapny
and they have no commercial goal...at least less than those guys at
Microsoft.
Met vriendelijke groeten / With kind
regards
Rob Beekmans
Technical Consultant
A-Tree Automatisering
Business Phone: +31 24 6452000
Business Fax: +31 24 6450463
Business website: http://www.a-tree.nl
<http://www.a-tree.nl/>
Business E-mail: R.Beekmans@xxxxxxxxx
Private E-mail:
RobBeekmans@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Private website: http://joulupukki.nl
<http://joulupukki.nl/>
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Mack, Rick
[mailto:RMack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 juli 2003 12:18
Aan: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Onderwerp: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Hi People,
As much as I feel this thread is getting
a bit pointless, I can't help myself ;-).
Have a look at the (sometimes crap)
stuff that exchange does and can do vs what the "equivalent" linux email
server does.
If we had as many functional modules
built in to the linux code as Microsoft have with exchange, I can't help
wondering what the end result would be.
The greatest strength in linux, besides
the linux community is that there is nothing as huge and (sort of) ugly
as exchange running on linux.
Complexity begets instability unless
you're pretty darn lucky.
regards,
Rick
Ulrich Mack
rmack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Volante Systems
18 Heussler Terrace, Milton 4064
Queensland Australia
tel +61 7 32467704
-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus [mailto:magnus@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 2:38 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
In my own experience with MS exchange
and a Linux Open Source Email server (that has the same functionality as
exchange ) I have had 458 days of uptime with the Linux version with no
issues, bugs, security flaws(exploits, holes...etc) as with the exchange
server I am patching it every 2 to 4 weeks and their are more security
issues with exchange (Exchange 2000 with sp2 installed their are at
least 20 security exploits and bugs with it right now according to CERT
and SANS)
That is why I stated that Linux is more
stable. Although the hard data is from our own deployment of both
Magnus
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lucas Boyken
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 12:25 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
The comment you made about Linux being
more stable than Windows is subjective. Unless hard data is available,
an apples to apples comparison, I cannot hold this statement to be
either true or false. Windows has a larger market share and is used for
more applications at this point in time than Linux. Open source, I will
conceed, is a great way to work as a community to solve problems.
However, the old adage that too many cooks in a kitchen only spoils the
reciepe might apply in this case. Of course you are bound to see some
changes in how the code works, what it can do, etc. However, with open
source does come problems that you don't have in a closed environment
that Microsoft enjoys. We must remain objective, that is all that I am
stressing. When sweeping comments charge that one is better than the
other without any hard data, that is when we get into battles of opinion
instead of battles of fact.
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical
Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus [mailto:magnus@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:21 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Just food for thought
If Microsoft went to Open source we
would have alot less problems, That is why Linux is alot more stable
than Windows would be. Also the fact that 3rd party software vendors do
not adhere to OS programming standards doesnt suprise me when 30 to 45%
of the time Microsoft's own programmers do not adhere to those
standards.
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lucas Boyken
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:50 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Neil,
After a while, you will see that I enjoy
the discussion more so than the actual position that I take in that
discussion. I hope this leaves no hard feelings between us. At the end
of the day, I like learning about what makes people tick, why they
choose the positions they take, etc.
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical
Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Braebaum, Neil
[mailto:Neil.Braebaum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 10:45 AM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
You do realise the irony of your
perspective, now, is almost a U-turn from the one you were arguing
against me, regarding Microsoft and their software quality-control? ;-)
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucas Boyken
[mailto:lboyken@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 02 July 2003 16:35
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Importance: High
Slow down. SP4, and a majority of the
service packs released, work fine with Microsoft products. Simply
because you have chosen a third party piece of software, you cannot
blame Microsoft for all the adverse reactions that it has to new
updates. Microsoft can only control the code that they put into their
products. They cannot control, to a large degree, the code that third
party vendors put into their products. We have had this discussion
before on this board, and it just dawned on me why I have suffered so
few errors with service packs compared to many of the responses I have
recieved. Could it be, and this is just a suggestion, but could it be
because a majority of you are using Citrix that this is the cause of
many of your headaches and not Microsoft. Let me make a point,
Microsoft develops and manufactures software, and this software is the
only code that they have direct control over. If a third party
vendor/manufacturer decides to code a program and doesn't follow the
guidelines set out in the OS's whitepapers, etc. any errors or problems
should not automatically be assigned to Microsoft. We must look at the
total picture and realize that there is a lot in play here. Very
possibly it could be that Citrix has not be coding correctly or to the
standards that Microsoft has put out.
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical
Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Murphy
[mailto:brian_murphy@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:10 PM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Importance: High
Gee. Sounds exactly like my issue a few
posts back....
"Post SP4 Issue - Desktop Login"
How hard is it to create a Service Pack
that doesn't screw everything up?
I could understand the first, 2nd, and
maybe the 3rd SP but come on guys. This is the 4th SP.
Luckily, I have not deployed this to any
production systems yet but this is still ridiculous.
Frank,
Just curious. What type of Hardware was
this deployed on and were any other updates applied other than the
Service Pack during the same time frame?
Thanks.
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