[THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
- From: Jim Kenzig <jimkenz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:36:55 -0400
CAN WE PLEASE STOP THIS THREAD! It is getting way off topic. If people
can't start to control themselves and limit their posting I will have to set
a limit of 5 posts per day per person or make the list moderated approval
for all messages. Or I could just start banning abusers.
That would be unfortunate.
Regards,
Jim Kenzig
Moderator
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf
Of Lucas Boyken
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:28 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
I agree, I have infact several users using Linux at home and swear by it.
You have made a great point, something else I need to consider while making
a final judgement (one day).
Thank you,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Reese [mailto:GReese@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:43 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
you don't need a full time IT person to run Linux. That's a myth.
I run Linux at home and my family uses it more than me. My wife is not a
tech. She is the average power user. When she first saw it all she asked
was "Where's my email, web browser, and word processor?" I showed her and
she has been running fine with it for almost a year now. She hasn't had to
call me yet. They play games, listen to music, etc. My wife said it's like
having a mac it runs so well (whole other debate there)
Most small business can get a small Linux operation going and then grab a
computer science major from the local area to help out every so often. The
local college here does just that and advertises it through their small
business workshops they do. It's cheap convenient help for the businesses
and good experience for the students.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucas Boyken [mailto:lboyken@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:22 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
All well made points, however, Linux still isn't the standard for businesses
here in America. While in Europe, I didn't see that much Linux (Unix and/or
dirivatives) being used as oppossed to Windows. I believe the comment made
earlier that it is kind of a crap shoot what you'll end up with in an IT
Dept. because usually the Techies aren't the ones buying the
software/hardware platforms.
As far as costs goes, you are forgetting the hidden costs of Linux
implementations. In a small business environment, how many can afford to
keep a full time IT person able to manipulate the source code to fix
problems, etc. This is the problem that I see. MS Windows is pretty
stable, allows you to add many different software suites, and is fairly easy
to use, install, and so on.
With that said, what is better... I haven't decided in my mind yet. Many
people in this thread have made some excellent points, on both sides. The
jury is still out...
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Beekmans [mailto:R.Beekmans@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:57 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
oke, let's also get involved in this thread....
We have customers running with linux servers (mail, File, Print and Fax
services) that are running for months now without any issues....
...and I can't say that about the Windows servers.....
Lucas wrote:
Windows has a larger market share and is used for more applications at this
point in time than Linux.
__
Do you really think that any small company, about 30 users will care about
the market share of Microsoft.....they want functionality...
They ask us we want mail on each workplace and a server to store data and
perhaps if possible fax from each workstation.....
We calculated this for a customer with 20 workstation to compare the upgrade
from NT4 / Exchange 5.5 to Windows 2000/Exchange 2000 and compared it with
the upgrade costs to Linux. the difference is 7800 Euro's....for what, what
extra usefull functionality does Microsoft with Windows and Exchange give
oppossed to Linux?
also he wrote:
However, with open source does come problems that you don't have in a closed
environment that Microsoft enjoys. We must remain objective
___
wonder where all those bugs come from with windows and Exchange???? you
wrote to much cooks in one kitchen etc etc, doesn't this apply to Microsoft
too? only there they work for one company........With the open source
communitiy you have more objective people looking at changes becasue they
don't work for the same comapny and they have no commercial goal...at least
less than those guys at Microsoft.
Met vriendelijke groeten / With kind regards
Rob Beekmans
Technical Consultant
A-Tree Automatisering
Business Phone: +31 24 6452000
Business Fax: +31 24 6450463
Business website: http://www.a-tree.nl <http://www.a-tree.nl/>
Business E-mail: R.Beekmans@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:R.Beekmans@xxxxxxxxx>
Private E-mail: RobBeekmans@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:RobBeekmans@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Private website: http://joulupukki.nl <http://joulupukki.nl/>
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Mack, Rick [mailto:RMack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 juli 2003 12:18
Aan: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Onderwerp: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Hi People,
As much as I feel this thread is getting a bit pointless, I can't help
myself ;-).
Have a look at the (sometimes crap) stuff that exchange does and can do vs
what the "equivalent" linux email server does.
If we had as many functional modules built in to the linux code as Microsoft
have with exchange, I can't help wondering what the end result would be.
The greatest strength in linux, besides the linux community is that there is
nothing as huge and (sort of) ugly as exchange running on linux.
Complexity begets instability unless you're pretty darn lucky.
regards,
Rick
Ulrich Mack
rmack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Volante Systems
18 Heussler Terrace, Milton 4064
Queensland Australia
tel +61 7 32467704
-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus [mailto:magnus@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 2:38 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
In my own experience with MS exchange and a Linux Open Source Email server
(that has the same functionality as exchange ) I have had 458 days of
uptime with the Linux version with no issues, bugs, security flaws(exploits,
holes...etc) as with the exchange server I am patching it every 2 to 4 weeks
and their are more security issues with exchange (Exchange 2000 with sp2
installed their are at least 20 security exploits and bugs with it right now
according to CERT and SANS)
That is why I stated that Linux is more stable. Although the hard data is
from our own deployment of both
Magnus
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Lucas Boyken
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 12:25 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
The comment you made about Linux being more stable than Windows is
subjective. Unless hard data is available, an apples to apples comparison,
I cannot hold this statement to be either true or false. Windows has a
larger market share and is used for more applications at this point in time
than Linux. Open source, I will conceed, is a great way to work as a
community to solve problems. However, the old adage that too many cooks in
a kitchen only spoils the reciepe might apply in this case. Of course you
are bound to see some changes in how the code works, what it can do, etc.
However, with open source does come problems that you don't have in a closed
environment that Microsoft enjoys. We must remain objective, that is all
that I am stressing. When sweeping comments charge that one is better than
the other without any hard data, that is when we get into battles of opinion
instead of battles of fact.
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus [mailto:magnus@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:21 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Just food for thought
If Microsoft went to Open source we would have alot less problems, That is
why Linux is alot more stable than Windows would be. Also the fact that 3rd
party software vendors do not adhere to OS programming standards doesnt
suprise me when 30 to 45% of the time Microsoft's own programmers do not
adhere to those standards.
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Lucas Boyken
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:50 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Neil,
After a while, you will see that I enjoy the discussion more so than the
actual position that I take in that discussion. I hope this leaves no hard
feelings between us. At the end of the day, I like learning about what
makes people tick, why they choose the positions they take, etc.
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Braebaum, Neil [mailto:Neil.Braebaum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 10:45 AM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
You do realise the irony of your perspective, now, is almost a U-turn from
the one you were arguing against me, regarding Microsoft and their software
quality-control? ;-)
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucas Boyken [mailto:lboyken@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 02 July 2003 16:35
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Importance: High
Slow down. SP4, and a majority of the service packs released, work fine
with Microsoft products. Simply because you have chosen a third party piece
of software, you cannot blame Microsoft for all the adverse reactions that
it has to new updates. Microsoft can only control the code that they put
into their products. They cannot control, to a large degree, the code that
third party vendors put into their products. We have had this discussion
before on this board, and it just dawned on me why I have suffered so few
errors with service packs compared to many of the responses I have recieved.
Could it be, and this is just a suggestion, but could it be because a
majority of you are using Citrix that this is the cause of many of your
headaches and not Microsoft. Let me make a point, Microsoft develops and
manufactures software, and this software is the only code that they have
direct control over. If a third party vendor/manufacturer decides to code a
program and doesn't follow the guidelines set out in the OS's whitepapers,
etc. any errors or problems should not automatically be assigned to
Microsoft. We must look at the total picture and realize that there is a
lot in play here. Very possibly it could be that Citrix has not be coding
correctly or to the standards that Microsoft has put out.
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Murphy [mailto:brian_murphy@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:10 PM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: Win2k SP4
Importance: High
Gee. Sounds exactly like my issue a few posts back....
"Post SP4 Issue - Desktop Login"
How hard is it to create a Service Pack that doesn't screw everything up?
I could understand the first, 2nd, and maybe the 3rd SP but come on guys.
This is the 4th SP.
Luckily, I have not deployed this to any production systems yet but this is
still ridiculous.
Frank,
Just curious. What type of Hardware was this deployed on and were any other
updates applied other than the Service Pack during the same time frame?
Thanks.
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