[TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
- From: Dick Andrews <RAndrews@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:59:52 +0100
So presumably an ASL without a cycle lane will have little meaning?
Dick
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Parrett, Simon [SMTP:simon.parrett@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: 21 September 2001 15:50
> To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
>
>
>
> Without risk being too pedantic page4 of the Highway Code states that:
>
> "Many of the rules in the Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey
> these rules you are committing a criminal offence. ....... Such rules are
> identified by the use of the words MUST/MUST NOT....."
>
> The use of the word MUST in rule 154 indicates that vehicles passing the
> first line at an ASL are committing an offence under RTA sect 36 (failure
> to
> comply with a sign).
>
> Things are a lot clearer with the proposed amendment to the TSRGD which
> has
> under regulation 43:
>
> Meaning of stop line and references to light signals
>
> (2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed in
> conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those light
> signals means-
>
> (a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal
> cycle
> proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
>
> (b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded
> beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle
> lane."
>
> So clearly both stop lines are legal signs and so ASL's will have a legal
> basis at least when this legislation is passed.....phew!
>
> See http://www.roads.dtlr.gov.uk/consult/traffic/regulations/08.htm for
> details.
>
> Simon Parrett
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard Saffer [mailto:Howard.Saffer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: 21 September 2001 14:20
> To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
>
>
>
> At the risk of degenerating into a legal (rather than a traffic control)
> talking shop, I should point out that actually, The Highway Code is 'not'
> in
> itself a legal requirement - as the Highway Code itself states:
>
> "A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway
> Code shall not of itself render that person to criminal proceedings of any
> kind, but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or
> criminal,and including proceedings for an offence under this Act, the Road
> Traffic Act 1960 or the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967) be relied upon
> by
> any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or to negative any
> liability which is in question in those proceedings"
>
> Taken from the Road Traffic Act 1972, Section 37 - and the quoted in the
> Highway Code.
>
> In other words - you 'cannot' prosecute a driver for non-compliance with a
> provision of the Highway Code 'alone. The Highway Code is just that - a
> code
> - not a law! Maybe this is semantics to you and me - but not as far as
> Police enforcement is concerned!
>
> Howard Saffer
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Parrett, Simon [mailto:simon.parrett@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: 21 September 2001 13:43
> To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
>
>
>
> Hi all !
>
> Rule 154 on ASLs of the Highway Code 1998 states that:
> Motorists MUST wait behind the first white line reached, and not encroach
> on
> the marked area.
>
> The use of the word "MUST" indicates that this is a legal requirement
> (basically I guess that both stop lines have the same legal standing).
>
> In York we have always put breaks in the stop lines if there is no lead-in
> lane.
>
> Although in theory (and law) vehicles must stop at the second stopline if
> they have passed the first many tend not to do so. I now set intergreens
> according to this driver behaviour ie longest clearance and shortest
> starting - just to be on the safe side.
>
>
> (as for cyclists the cycling code rule book states that: "all highway
> regulations are there for your inconvinience - ignore them" this comes
> just
> before "the pavements are as much a part of the road as anywhere else -
> use
> them when you feel like it")
>
> Simon Parrett
> City of York Council
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard Saffer [mailto:Howard.Saffer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: 20 September 2001 11:05
> To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
>
>
>
> Thank you, Andrew - very interesting.
>
> In relation to red light cameras, as ASLs have no 'legal' basis (as far as
> I
> understand)- as they are not covered under TSRGD or other legislation - is
> it actually a traffic 'offence' for a vehicle to pass through a vehicle
> stopline if it were to stop at the ASL (and not progress through the
> junction)? I would have thought that the provisions in the current TSRGD
> would be inadequate if the matter were to come to court. After all, the
> Primary signal is normally alongside the end of the ASL (is it not?)
>
> Regards
>
> Howard Saffer
> Sheffield City Council
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Sawyer [mailto:andy.sawyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: 19 September 2001 16:41
> To: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
>
>
>
> I have designed and installed many installations with ASL's and D' loops.
> =
> I have always located the loops at standard spacings from the vehicle =
> stopline and not the advanced stop line. My thinking behind this is that
> =
> it is no different to any vehicle stop line. All intergreens etc. are =
> measured from the vehicle stop lines and vehicle extensions on the loops =
> are not normally affected.
>
> To reinforce this argument on one of our sites with ASL's and D' loops we
> =
> have red light cameras installed. The cameras loops are installed and =
> configured around the vehicle stopline as this is the requirement set out
> =
> by our local police authority..
>
> Regards
>
> Andy Sawyer - Sefton M.B.C
>
> >>> Howard.Saffer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 19 September 2001 15:38:18 >>>
>
> Now there are some users enrolled out there - (and you're all probably fed
> =
> up already with replies to Peter Bull from other users joining) - an open
> =
> question - to get the ball rolling!
>
> Recently we have mainly been installing MVDs with stopline loops on most =
> of our schemes.
>
> On a current scheme we want to install an advanced (cycle) stopline (ASL)
> =
> - but need system D loops (in association with speed discrimination).
>
> Do (you) other users set out your system 'D' loops 12, 25 and 39 metres =
> from the vehicle stopline - or from the ASL? What is your rationale for =
> whatever you do on this?
>
>
> Howard Saffer
> Traffic Signal Design
> Sheffield City Council
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