[TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
- From: "Parrett, Simon" <simon.parrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:50:11 +0100
Without risk being too pedantic page4 of the Highway Code states that:
"Many of the rules in the Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey
these rules you are committing a criminal offence. ....... Such rules are
identified by the use of the words MUST/MUST NOT....."
The use of the word MUST in rule 154 indicates that vehicles passing the
first line at an ASL are committing an offence under RTA sect 36 (failure to
comply with a sign).
Things are a lot clearer with the proposed amendment to the TSRGD which has
under regulation 43:
Meaning of stop line and references to light signals
(2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed in
conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those light
signals means-
(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle
proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
(b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded
beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle
lane."
So clearly both stop lines are legal signs and so ASL's will have a legal
basis at least when this legislation is passed.....phew!
See http://www.roads.dtlr.gov.uk/consult/traffic/regulations/08.htm for
details.
Simon Parrett
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Saffer [mailto:Howard.Saffer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 21 September 2001 14:20
To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
At the risk of degenerating into a legal (rather than a traffic control)
talking shop, I should point out that actually, The Highway Code is 'not' in
itself a legal requirement - as the Highway Code itself states:
"A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway
Code shall not of itself render that person to criminal proceedings of any
kind, but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or
criminal,and including proceedings for an offence under this Act, the Road
Traffic Act 1960 or the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967) be relied upon by
any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or to negative any
liability which is in question in those proceedings"
Taken from the Road Traffic Act 1972, Section 37 - and the quoted in the
Highway Code.
In other words - you 'cannot' prosecute a driver for non-compliance with a
provision of the Highway Code 'alone. The Highway Code is just that - a code
- not a law! Maybe this is semantics to you and me - but not as far as
Police enforcement is concerned!
Howard Saffer
-----Original Message-----
From: Parrett, Simon [mailto:simon.parrett@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 21 September 2001 13:43
To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
Hi all !
Rule 154 on ASLs of the Highway Code 1998 states that:
Motorists MUST wait behind the first white line reached, and not encroach on
the marked area.
The use of the word "MUST" indicates that this is a legal requirement
(basically I guess that both stop lines have the same legal standing).
In York we have always put breaks in the stop lines if there is no lead-in
lane.
Although in theory (and law) vehicles must stop at the second stopline if
they have passed the first many tend not to do so. I now set intergreens
according to this driver behaviour ie longest clearance and shortest
starting - just to be on the safe side.
(as for cyclists the cycling code rule book states that: "all highway
regulations are there for your inconvinience - ignore them" this comes just
before "the pavements are as much a part of the road as anywhere else - use
them when you feel like it")
Simon Parrett
City of York Council
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Saffer [mailto:Howard.Saffer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 20 September 2001 11:05
To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
Thank you, Andrew - very interesting.
In relation to red light cameras, as ASLs have no 'legal' basis (as far as I
understand)- as they are not covered under TSRGD or other legislation - is
it actually a traffic 'offence' for a vehicle to pass through a vehicle
stopline if it were to stop at the ASL (and not progress through the
junction)? I would have thought that the provisions in the current TSRGD
would be inadequate if the matter were to come to court. After all, the
Primary signal is normally alongside the end of the ASL (is it not?)
Regards
Howard Saffer
Sheffield City Council
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Sawyer [mailto:andy.sawyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 19 September 2001 16:41
To: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Loops and ASL's - an open question!
I have designed and installed many installations with ASL's and D' loops. =
I have always located the loops at standard spacings from the vehicle =
stopline and not the advanced stop line. My thinking behind this is that =
it is no different to any vehicle stop line. All intergreens etc. are =
measured from the vehicle stop lines and vehicle extensions on the loops =
are not normally affected.
To reinforce this argument on one of our sites with ASL's and D' loops we =
have red light cameras installed. The cameras loops are installed and =
configured around the vehicle stopline as this is the requirement set out =
by our local police authority..
Regards
Andy Sawyer - Sefton M.B.C
>>> Howard.Saffer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 19 September 2001 15:38:18 >>>
Now there are some users enrolled out there - (and you're all probably fed =
up already with replies to Peter Bull from other users joining) - an open =
question - to get the ball rolling!
Recently we have mainly been installing MVDs with stopline loops on most =
of our schemes.
On a current scheme we want to install an advanced (cycle) stopline (ASL) =
- but need system D loops (in association with speed discrimination).
Do (you) other users set out your system 'D' loops 12, 25 and 39 metres =
from the vehicle stopline - or from the ASL? What is your rationale for =
whatever you do on this?
Howard Saffer
Traffic Signal Design
Sheffield City Council
The information in this email is confidential. The contents may not be =
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