[SI-LIST] Re: time domain simulation w/ PDN planes

  • From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <sherman.chen@xxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 14:57:34 -0400

Sherman,
The solvers already handle that.  All you need to do is place ports across
all power and signal pins that you want to model.  you will produce an
s-parameter which fully incorporates noise coupling.  This works with any
frequency domain tool that can model power planes, vias, and signals.

regards,

Scott



Scott McMorrow
TeraspeedĀ® Consulting - A Division of Samtec
16 Stormy Brook Rd
Falmouth, ME 04105
(401) 284-1827 Business
http://www.teraspeed.com

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Chen, Sherman <sherman.chen@xxxxxxx> wrote:

> Nilesh,
>
> Thanks for the paper. My question is regarding how to model the coupling
> from PDN to the transmission line, not the transmitter or the receiver
> chip. The coupling effect across the whole span of the tline need to be
> calculated. To do that in circuit simulator what I can think of is to use a
> multi-port sparam which's ports are extracted btw the locations along the
> tline and the VRM, at the interval of say lambda/20. At each location the
> port need to be set at four points: DP+, DP-, Vcc on power plane, and GND
> on the ground plane.
> Any comments on this thought?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:38 PM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Chen, Sherman
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
>
> Sherman
>
> If I understood your question correctly, I believe that this simulation
> can be handled in ADS. To do this you need to create an SI/PI model of the
> physical interconnects that includes all the power/ground planes and also
> signal lines. Then you can apply specific time domain stimulus in a
> Transient simulation.
>
> Here is a DesignCon 2014 paper that explains how we can do this:
>
> Paper:
> http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-4083EN.pdf
>
> Slides:
>
> http://www.xilinx.com/events/designcon2014/11_WE5Slides_Touchstonev2SIPISParameterModels.pdf
>
> If you have more questions about this technique, you can contact me
> offline.
>
> Thanks
> Nilesh Kamdar
> Applications Engineer, Keysight Technologies
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Msg: #1 in digest
> From: "Chen, Sherman" <sherman.chen@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: [SI-LIST] time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 14:07:19 +0000
>
> Hello experts,
> I'm trying to evaluate the impact of power plane noise on the HS signals.
> The sim setup would require to apply a noise source on the PDN (somewhere
> btw power plane and ground plane), also a PRBS source at the initial end of
> the t-line. To my knowledge it looks only Cadence Sigrity Speed2000 can run
> such SI/PI combined sim since the feedback I got from Keysight and ANSYS
> both said that neither ADS nor SIWave can handle such sim case where time
> domain sim needs to be run w/ the noise coupled from power/ground plane.
> Note the coupling needs to be from the whole plane rather than injected at
> one point for the latter we can simply use a sparam model of the PDN as the
> means of noise injection but this would not be the equivalent of the plane
> coupling, right?
> Any suggestion will be appreciated.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Sherman Chen
> Signal Integrity
> EMC Global Hardware Engineering
> Tel: +86 21 60951100-3329
>
>
>
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