[SI-LIST] Re: time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
- From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lyndell.l.asbenson@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 22:11:35 -0500
That assumes that the measurements are physically possible.
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed® Consulting - A Division of Samtec
16 Stormy Brook Rd
Falmouth, ME 04105
(401) 284-1827 Business
http://www.teraspeed.com
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Asbenson, Lyndell L <
lyndell.l.asbenson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Actually taking the physical measurement is best in accuracy ! -Lyndell
> Lee Asbenson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Han, Guobing
> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:07 AM
> To: cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx
> Cc: shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; SI LIST; sherman.chen@xxxxxxx;
> nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
>
> Agree with Cristian!
> 3D tools are best in accuracy, but Ansys SIwave and Cadence PowerSI also
> can model the interaction
> between PDN and trace. :-)
> Hi Sherman,
>
> I guess you may forget to check the setting to consider the coupling
> between PDN and traces.
> If you didn't check this option, the total Xtalks may be very little and
> let you think the tool can't model them. :)
>
> Thanks,
> Robin
>
>
> 2014-10-23 10:19 GMT+08:00 Cristian Gozzi <cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx>:
>
> > Hi Yuri
> > Both Ansys SIwave and Cadence PowerSI have great modeling of interaction
> > between PDN and trace... They do not simulate transmission line and
> plane
> > separately as you described.
> >
> > For instance in SIwave a 2D MoM is used to capture trace-trace,
> trace-plane
> > and plane-plane coupling all along the signal path... The MoM matrix is
> > then assembled together with transmission line model with the hybrid EM
> > circuit (spice like) sim...
> >
> > Of course it's always a matter of the frequency vs simulation time
> > trade-off you are looking for...
> >
> > For instance if you have an area of high Swiss cheese / perforation and
> you
> > want to well capture noise between trace and plane in these conditions,
> in
> > that case the 3D solvers are better, but you may need to reduce the
> problem
> > size only around the plane you want to simulate, otherwise the sim could
> be
> > too huge...
> >
> > Fortunately the great job you and other EDA companies are doing on HPC
> can
> > drastically reduce the sim time of 3D for a PI analysis and makes things
> > possible today ;-)
> >
> > Regards
> > Cristian
> > Il 22/ott/2014 13:14 "Yuriy Shlepnev" <shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ha
> scritto:
> >
> > > Hi Sherman,
> > >
> > > Now you explained the problem :-)
> > > All hybrid solvers (both frequency or time domain) that use separate
> > > transmission line and transmission plane (parallel plane) models will
> not
> > > take this type of coupling into account.
> > >
> > > The reason is simple. Transmission plane model of the parallel planes
> > > includes electric field with only one component perpendicular to the
> > planes
> > > and magnetic field components parallel to the planes (may be formalized
> > as
> > > TM waves). These fields couple or excited by only to the currents
> flowing
> > > in
> > > the direction orthogonal to the planes - currents on vias for instance.
> > On
> > > the other hand, T-line strips have currents predominantly parallel to
> the
> > > planes and are simulated in these hybrid solvers separately with the
> > > coupling only at the vertical transitions.
> > > In a simplified case with parallel planes with strips between them and
> TM
> > > waves propagating along the strips will be exactly orthogonal (do not
> > > interact) to the TEM waves propagating along the strips (even in
> presence
> > > of
> > > dielectric and conductor losses). Such modes do not interact!
> > >
> > > In reality, TM waves are not exactly TM and do not propagate along the
> > > strips. Small coupling takes place mostly due to discontinuities,
> > > inhomogeneities and losses. To construct a model with the coupling, you
> > > will
> > > need 3D analysis that accounts for all major factors contributing to
> the
> > > coupling. You should see that the coupling at the transition to the
> strip
> > > will be dominant. Though, I have not seen such investigation - may be
> > > someone on this list can provide further references.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Yuriy
> > >
> > > Yuriy Shlepnev, Ph.D.
> > > President, Simberian Inc.
> > > 3030 S Torrey Pines Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89146, USA
> > > Office +1-702-876-2882; Fax +1-702-482-7903
> > > Cell +1-206-409-2368; Virtual +1-408-627-7706
> > > Skype: shlepnev
> > >
> > > www.simberian.com
> > > Simbeor - Accurate, Fast, Easy and Affordable Electromagnetic Signal
> > > Integrity Software
> > > 2010 and 2011 DesignVision Award Winner
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
> si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On
> > > Behalf Of Chen, Sherman
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:47 AM
> > > To: nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
> > >
> > > Nilesh,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the paper. My question is regarding how to model the
> coupling
> > > from PDN to the transmission line, not the transmitter or the receiver
> > > chip.
> > > The coupling effect across the whole span of the tline need to be
> > > calculated. To do that in circuit simulator what I can think of is to
> > use a
> > > multi-port sparam which's ports are extracted btw the locations along
> the
> > > tline and the VRM, at the interval of say lambda/20. At each location
> the
> > > port need to be set at four points: DP+, DP-, Vcc on power plane, and
> GND
> > > on
> > > the ground plane.
> > > Any comments on this thought?
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:38 PM
> > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Chen, Sherman
> > > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
> > >
> > > Sherman
> > >
> > > If I understood your question correctly, I believe that this simulation
> > can
> > > be handled in ADS. To do this you need to create an SI/PI model of the
> > > physical interconnects that includes all the power/ground planes and
> also
> > > signal lines. Then you can apply specific time domain stimulus in a
> > > Transient simulation.
> > >
> > > Here is a DesignCon 2014 paper that explains how we can do this:
> > >
> > > Paper:
> > > http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-4083EN.pdf
> > >
> > > Slides:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.xilinx.com/events/designcon2014/11_WE5Slides_Touchstonev2SIPISPar
> > > ameterModels.pdf
> > >
> > > If you have more questions about this technique, you can contact me
> > > offline.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Nilesh Kamdar
> > > Applications Engineer, Keysight Technologies
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Msg: #1 in digest
> > > From: "Chen, Sherman" <sherman.chen@xxxxxxx>
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
> > > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 14:07:19 +0000
> > >
> > > Hello experts,
> > > I'm trying to evaluate the impact of power plane noise on the HS
> signals.
> > > The sim setup would require to apply a noise source on the PDN
> (somewhere
> > > btw power plane and ground plane), also a PRBS source at the initial
> end
> > of
> > > the t-line. To my knowledge it looks only Cadence Sigrity Speed2000 can
> > run
> > > such SI/PI combined sim since the feedback I got from Keysight and
> ANSYS
> > > both said that neither ADS nor SIWave can handle such sim case where
> time
> > > domain sim needs to be run w/ the noise coupled from power/ground
> plane.
> > > Note the coupling needs to be from the whole plane rather than injected
> > at
> > > one point for the latter we can simply use a sparam model of the PDN as
> > the
> > > means of noise injection but this would not be the equivalent of the
> > plane
> > > coupling, right?
> > > Any suggestion will be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Sherman Chen
> > > Signal Integrity
> > > EMC Global Hardware Engineering
> > > Tel: +86 21 60951100-3329
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> > >
> > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > >
> > > For help:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> > >
> > >
> > > List forum is accessible at:
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
> > >
> > > List archives are viewable at:
> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > >
> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> > >
> > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > >
> > > For help:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> > >
> > >
> > > List forum is accessible at:
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
> > >
> > > List archives are viewable at:
> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > >
> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> >
> > List forum is accessible at:
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> >
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> - Robin (Han, Guobing)
> TEL: 86-21-61094805
> MSN: han_guobing@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List forum is accessible at:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List forum is accessible at:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List forum is accessible at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
