[SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
- From: "Tom Dagostino" <tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vicente.cavanna@xxxxxx>, <homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:32:28 -0700
Vicente
It is not a problem getting a large amount of energy to the DUT, it is a
problem of getting the same energy over the measurement frequency range. =
If
there is an inductive launch it will act as a low pass filter. Thus the
energy will be different at different frequencies.
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed(R) Labs
13610 SW Harness Lane
Beaverton, OR 97008
503-430-1065
tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
www.teraspeed.com=20
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
401-284-1827
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =
On
Behalf Of Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs)
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:20 PM
To: homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
With a VNA one can increase the power level of the stimulus and get =
more
energy into and through the DUT even when the DUT is lossy and/or =
extremely
reflective. With a TDR this is not as easy to do; in fact the TDRs I =
have
used do not permit such control. Vicente
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20 =20
>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter J
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:36 AM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?=20
>=3D20 Hi,
> The biggest problem in using a TDR or VNA for that matter is=3D20
> to get enough energy into the DUT since even a very small=3D20
> inductance at the connection point from the TDR to the DUT=3D20
> will give an insertion loss. It's possible to get a return=3D20
> loss of -20dB at 5GHz if you work hard. At 50 GHz it's hard=3D20
> to get -3 dB RL which means that half of the power will enter=3D20
> the DUT and the rest is wasted. By using a VNA it is possible=3D20
> to make a TRL calibration kit and remove the effect of the=3D20
> testsystem and only get the DUT characteristics.
> I use a short pigtail with a thin semirigid coax instead of a=3D20
> probe when I do measurements with the TDR(tektronix). It=3D20
> increases the accuracy a great deal.
>=3D20
> BR
> Peter
>=3D20
> -----Original Message-----
>=3D20
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
> On Behalf Of ext Asbenson, Lyndell L
>=3D20
> Sent: 24. april 2007 02:27
>=3D20
> To: heidi.barnes@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>=3D20
> Cc: timothy.j.nash@xxxxxxxx; tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx
>=3D20
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
>=3D20
> Dedicated TDR is much easer to setup then going the VNA route -Lyndell
>=3D20
> -----Original Message-----
>=3D20
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> ]
>=3D20
> On Behalf Of Barnes, Heidi
>=3D20
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:17 PM
>=3D20
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>=3D20
> Cc: timothy.j.nash@xxxxxxxx; tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx
>=3D20
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
>=3D20
> Hi Tom,
>=3D20
> Tim is correct in that probing is not a simple task. If you=3D20
> have the time and patience, a Vector Network Analyzer with=3D20
> PCB Thru-Reflect-Line Calibration standards can provide a=3D20
> method for getting measured electrical data for a PCB=3D20
> structure that does not include the probes or connectorized=3D20
> transitions on to the printed circuit board. The S-Parameter=3D20
> data can then be converted to time domain for TDR analysis of=3D20
> the discontinuities and a 40GHz box will give you around an=3D20
> 18pS rise time pulse (an edge that is ~100mils long for a PCB=3D20
> dielectric constant of ~4) which gives a significant amount=3D20
> of detail (50mils is rather ambitious unless you have money=3D20
> for the top end 110GHz VNA's or 8pS rise time TDR scopes).=3D20
> The other thing to think about is that most applications=3D20
> running about 3Gbps are differential so it is also nice to=3D20
> have a 4-Port system for measurements.
>=3D20
> Regards,
>=3D20
> Heidi
>=3D20
> -----Original Message-----
>=3D20
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> ]
>=3D20
> On Behalf Of Nash, Timothy J
>=3D20
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:33 AM
>=3D20
> To: tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>=3D20
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
>=3D20
> Hi, Tom.
>=3D20
> I have tried using a Tektronix TDR (I'm not sure of the=3D20
> model) to probe PCBs before, and found that what probe you=3D20
> were using, and WHAT you were probing, can make or break your=3D20
> measurement. We were using a hand-held pressure-actuated type=3D20
> probe and simply bending your wrist a little would change the=3D20
> response. We had a tough time even discerning between two=3D20
> vias spaced an inch apart from each other. I believe the=3D20
> probes used by most PCB manufacturers are on a robotic arm=3D20
> and they are probing PCB coupons that have pre-defined TDR=3D20
> features. I found it very difficult to glean much useful info=3D20
> from real PCB traces when the discontinuities were as close=3D20
> together as what you are describing. I don't believe this was=3D20
> a fault of the scope - just a function of the probing method=3D20
> and the feature constraints of the PCB.
>=3D20
> Tim
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> -----Original Message-----
>=3D20
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> ]
>=3D20
> On Behalf Of tom_cip_11551
>=3D20
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:47 AM
>=3D20
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>=3D20
> Subject: [SI-LIST] TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
>=3D20
> Hi to the Signal Integrity community.
>=3D20
> I am looking for a set of equipment with wich to do TDR=3D20
> analysis on=3D3D3D20 high speed PCB structures. We are now=3D20
> building boards to run at=3D3D3D20 speeds of 3 Gb/s or faster and=3D20
> I would like to resolve=3D3D3D20 discontinuites within, say, 50=3D20
> mils to 80 mils of each other.
>=3D20
> I have gotten quotes from Tektronix and Agilent for TDR=3D20
> equipment. =3D3D3D20
>=3D20
> The Tektronix system consists of the DSA8200 digital sampling=3D20
> =3D3D scope,=3D3D3D20 the 80E04 TDR sampling module and the =
80SICON=3D20
> signal integrity and=3D3D3D20 failure analysis software (a $20K=3D20
> item by itself).
>=3D20
> The Agilent system consists of the 86100C scope, the 54754A=3D20
> TDR=3D3D3D20 module and various other software programs for S=3D20
> parameters, Jitter=3D3D3D20 analysis, etc.
>=3D20
> I am wondering what the Signal Integrity community at large=3D20
> is=3D3D3D20 using.
> Which system is more popular and, most important, cost=3D3D3D20 =3D
effective?
>=3D20
> What are some of the advantages and drawbacks of each?
>=3D20
> Are there other solutions on the market that are more cost effective?=20
>=3D20 Thank You
>=3D20
> Tom
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
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