[SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?

  • From: "Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs)" <vicente.cavanna@xxxxxx>
  • To: <dmitry.a.smolyansky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:02:31 -0000

 Dima,

You must admit that, if I make the line lossy enough, the through
response (S21) will eventually be low enough as to be buried in noise.
If you cannot increase the energy in the stimulus you are stuck. You
cannot measure lines that are more lossy. If you can increase the
stimulus energy you can still perform a valid measurement. That is all I
was trying to say.=20

In practice where I have reached such limitations with a TDR is when I
was trying to measure phase accurately (to measure skew). It was much
easier to get accurate measurements on lossy lines with a VNA.

Vicente

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dmitry.a.smolyansky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> [mailto:dmitry.a.smolyansky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:46 AM
> To: Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs);=20
> tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix=20
> vs Agilent?
>=20
> Vicente,
>=20
> Not sure why you need to increase the energy to test lossy lines...
> Never heard of anybody doing it that way. Seems like to=20
> characterize lossy lines,  you just need adequate dynamic=20
> range, which TDRs provide amply.
>=20
> Thanks,
> =20
> Dima Smolyansky
> Product Marketing Manager
> Tektronix, Inc.
> P.O. Box 500, MS 39-111
> Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
> 503-627-7180
> 503-627-2260 (fax)
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs)=20
> [mailto:vicente.cavanna@xxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:41 AM
> To: Smolyansky, Dmitry A; tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;=20
> homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix=20
> vs Agilent?
>=20
>  Yes, I know VNA energy is not uniform either, nor, as I said=20
> earlier, does it need to be. There just has to be sufficient=20
> energy at each frequency to make an accurate measurement.
>=20
> The main point (in fact the only point) I was trying to make=20
> is that, with a VNA, one can increase the energy from the=20
> stimulus whereas with the TDRs I am familiar with (my=20
> familiarity does not extend to any recent Tecktronix=20
> instruments) one cannot easily increase the energy.
> The ability to increase the energy is very useful (and may well become
> essential) when testing lossy lines (a very practical scenario).
>=20
> Vicente
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dmitry.a.smolyansky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:dmitry.a.smolyansky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:20 AM
> > To: Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs);=20
> tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;=20
> > homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs=20
> > Agilent?
> >=20
> > VNA energy is not uniform either. It is being "uniformized"=20
> > using calibration. The same applies for TDR. And while the=20
> TDR-based=20
> > S-parameter dynamic range is lower than that of a VNA, it=20
> is more than=20
> > adequate for serial data applications.
> > You get about -70 dB of dynamic range at DC and -40 dB at 50 GHz on=20
> > Tektronix equipment. I would not recommend this for=20
> microwave filter=20
> > design, but for serial data it is perfect.
> > As a side bonus, you get true differential - individual source per=20
> > each channel, avoiding any switching errors and ensuring accurate=20
> > non-linear and active device characterization.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > =20
> > Dima Smolyansky
> > Tektronix, Inc.
> > P.O. Box 500, MS 39-111
> > Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
> > 503-627-7180
> > 503-627-2260 (fax)
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs)
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:38 AM
> > To: tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx;=20
> > si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
> >=20
> >  Hi Tom,
> > But it is not too important to get the same energy over the=20
> > measurement frequency range (after all, the energy in the=20
> TDR stimulus=20
> > is hardly uniform over frequency). What is of primary=20
> importance is to=20
> > have
> > *sufficient* energy at the detector to overcome the noise (i.e.
> > sufficient signal to noise ratio) at all frequencies of=20
> interest. I do=20
> > agree of course that the DUT plays a huge part in how much energy=20
> > reaches the detector.
> > Vicente
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20 =20
> > >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom Dagostino
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:32 PM
> > > To: Cavanna, Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs);=3D20=20
> > >homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix=20
> vs Agilent?
> > >=3D20
> > > Vicente
> > >=3D20
> > > It is not a problem getting a large amount of energy to
> > the=3D20  DUT,
> > >it is a problem of getting the same energy over the=3D20 =20
> measurement=20
> > >frequency range. =3D3D  If there is an inductive=3D20  launch it
> > will act
> > >as a low pass filter.  Thus the energy=3D20  will be different at=20
> > >different frequencies.
> > >=3D20
> > > Tom Dagostino
> > > Teraspeed(R) Labs
> > > 13610 SW Harness Lane
> > > Beaverton, OR 97008
> > > 503-430-1065
> > > tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
> > > www.teraspeed.com=3D3D20
> > >=3D20
> > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > > 121 North River Drive
> > > Narragansett, RI 02882
> > > 401-284-1827
> > >=3D20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20 =20
> > >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =3D3D On Behalf Of =
Cavanna,=3D20=20
> > >Vicente Vaca (Sr. ; ProCurve ASICs)
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:20 PM
> > > To: homer.si.mpson66@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix=20
> vs Agilent?
> > >=3D20
> > >=3D20
> > >  With a VNA one can increase the power level of the
> > stimulus=3D20  and
> > >get =3D3D more energy into and through the DUT even when
> > the=3D20  DUT is
> > >lossy and/or =3D3D extremely reflective. With a TDR this=3D20 =20
> is not as=20
> > >easy to do; in fact the TDRs I =3D3D have used do not=3D20 =20
> permit such=20
> > >control. Vicente =3D20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20 =3D3D20=3D20=20
> > > >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter J
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:36 AM
> > > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs=3D20
> > > Agilent?=3D3D20=3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20  Hi,  The biggest problem in using a TDR or VNA =
for=3D20
> > > that matter=3D20
> > > >is=3D3D3D20  to get enough energy into the DUT since even a =
very=3D20
> > > small=3D3D3D20 =3D20
> > > >inductance at the connection point from the TDR to the=3D20
> > > DUT=3D3D3D20  will=3D20
> > > >give an insertion loss. It's possible to get a
> > return=3D3D3D20  loss of
> > =3D
> >=20
> > > >-20dB at 5GHz if you work hard. At 50 GHz it's hard=3D3D3D20  =
to=3D20
> > > get -3 dB=3D20
> > > >RL which means that half of the power will enter=3D3D3D20  =
the=3D20
> > > DUT and the=3D20
> > > >rest is wasted. By using a VNA it is possible=3D3D3D20  to make a
> > TRL=3D20
> > > >calibration kit and remove the effect of the=3D3D3D20 =3D20
> > > testsystem and only=3D20
> > > >get the DUT characteristics.
> > > > I use a short pigtail with a thin semirigid coax instead
> > of a=3D3D3D20
> > =3D
> > =3D20
> > > >probe when I do measurements with the TDR(tektronix).=20
> > It=3D3D3D20 =3D20
> > > >increases the accuracy a great deal.
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > BR
> > > > Peter
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D20
> > >=20
> >=20
> [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
> > > > On Behalf Of ext Asbenson, Lyndell L =3D3D3D20
> > > > Sent: 24. april 2007 02:27
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > To: heidi.barnes@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D20
> > > > Cc: timothy.j.nash@xxxxxxxx; tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D20
> > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix
> > vs Agilent?
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Dedicated TDR is much easer to setup then going the VNA=3D20
> > > route -Lyndell=3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20  -----Original Message----- =3D3D3D20
> > > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >=20
> > [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > ]
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > On Behalf Of Barnes, Heidi
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:17 PM =3D3D3D20
> > > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Cc: timothy.j.nash@xxxxxxxx; tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D20
> > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix
> > vs Agilent?
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Hi Tom,
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Tim is correct in that probing is not a simple task. If=3D20
> > > you=3D3D3D20  have=3D20
> > > >the time and patience, a Vector Network Analyzer
> > with=3D3D3D20  PCB=3D20
> > > >Thru-Reflect-Line Calibration standards can provide a=3D3D3D20 =
=3D20
> > > method for=3D20
> > > >getting measured electrical data for a PCB=3D3D3D20 =20
> structure that =3D
> > does=3D20
> > > >not include the probes or connectorized=3D3D3D20
> > transitions on to the
> > =3D
> >=20
> > > >printed circuit board. The S-Parameter=3D3D3D20  data can =
then=3D20
> > > be converted=3D20
> > > >to time domain for TDR analysis of=3D3D3D20  the=20
> discontinuities and
> > a=3D20
> > > >40GHz box will give you around an=3D3D3D20  18pS rise time =
pulse=3D20
> > > (an edge=3D20
> > > >that is ~100mils long for a PCB=3D3D3D20  dielectric constant =
of=3D20
> > > ~4) which=3D20
> > > >gives a significant amount=3D3D3D20  of detail (50mils is =
rather=3D20
> > > ambitious=3D20
> > > >unless you have money=3D3D3D20  for the top end 110GHz=20
> VNA's or 8pS =3D
> > rise=3D20
> > > >time TDR scopes).=3D3D3D20  The other thing to think about
> > is that most
> > =3D
> >=20
> > > >applications=3D3D3D20  running about 3Gbps are differential =
so=3D20
> > > it is also=3D20
> > > >nice to=3D3D3D20  have a 4-Port system for measurements.
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Regards,
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Heidi
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >=20
> > [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > ]
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > On Behalf Of Nash, Timothy J
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:33 AM =3D3D3D20
> > > > To: tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D20
> > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix
> > vs Agilent?
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Hi, Tom.
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > I have tried using a Tektronix TDR (I'm not sure of the=3D3D3D20
> > > > model) to probe PCBs before, and found that what probe=3D20
> > > you=3D3D3D20  were=3D20
> > > >using, and WHAT you were probing, can make or break
> > your=3D3D3D20 =3D20
> > > >measurement. We were using a hand-held pressure-actuated
> > type=3D3D3D20
> > =3D
> >=20
> > > >probe and simply bending your wrist a little would change
> > the=3D3D3D20
> > =3D
> >=20
> > > >response. We had a tough time even discerning between=20
> two=3D3D3D20  =3D
> > vias=3D20
> > > >spaced an inch apart from each other. I believe the=3D3D3D20 =
=3D20
> > > probes used=3D20
> > > >by most PCB manufacturers are on a robotic arm=3D3D3D20  and they
> > are=3D20
> > > >probing PCB coupons that have pre-defined TDR=3D3D3D20 =3D20
> > > features. I found=3D20
> > > >it very difficult to glean much useful info=3D3D3D20  from =
real=3D20
> > > PCB traces=3D20
> > > >when the discontinuities were as close=3D3D3D20  together as=3D20
> > > what you are=3D20
> > > >describing. I don't believe this was=3D3D3D20  a fault of =
the=3D20
> > > scope - just=3D20
> > > >a function of the probing method=3D3D3D20  and the feature=3D20
> > > constraints of=3D20
> > > >the PCB.
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Tim
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >=20
> > [*mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > ]
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > On Behalf Of tom_cip_11551
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:47 AM =3D3D3D20
> > > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] TDR Analsis Equipment..Tektronix vs Agilent?
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Hi to the Signal Integrity community.
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > I am looking for a set of equipment with wich to do=3D20
> > > TDR=3D3D3D20  analysis=3D20
> > > >on=3D3D3D3D3D20 high speed PCB structures. We are now=3D3D3D20 =
=3D20
> > > building boards=3D20
> > > >to run at=3D3D3D3D3D20 speeds of 3 Gb/s or faster and=3D3D3D20  =
I=3D20
> > > would like to=3D20
> > > >resolve=3D3D3D3D3D20 discontinuites within, say, 50=3D3D3D20  =
mils=3D20
> > > to 80 mils=3D20
> > > >of each other.
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > I have gotten quotes from Tektronix and Agilent for
> > TDR=3D3D3D20 =3D20
> > > >equipment. =3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D20  The Tektronix system consists =
of
> > the=3D20
> > > >DSA8200 digital sampling=3D3D3D20  =3D3D3D3D scope,=3D3D3D3D3D20
> > the 80E04
> > =3D
> > TDR=3D20
> > > >sampling module and the =3D3D
> > > 80SICON=3D3D3D20
> > > > signal integrity and=3D3D3D3D3D20 failure analysis software =
(a=3D20
> > > $20K=3D3D3D20 =3D20
> > > >item by itself).
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > The Agilent system consists of the 86100C scope, the=20
> 54754A=3D3D3D20
> > =3D20
> > > >TDR=3D3D3D3D3D20 module and various other software programs for =
=3D
> > S=3D3D3D20 =3D20
> > > >parameters, Jitter=3D3D3D3D3D20 analysis, etc.
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > I am wondering what the Signal Integrity community at=20
> large=3D3D3D20
> > =3D20
> > > >is=3D3D3D3D3D20 using.
> > > > Which system is more popular and, most important,
> > cost=3D3D3D3D3D20 =3D
> > =3D3D3D
> > > effective?
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > What are some of the advantages and drawbacks of each?
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Are there other solutions on the market that are more cost=3D20=20
> > > >effective?=3D3D20 =3D3D3D20  Thank You =3D3D3D20  Tom =3D3D3D20 =
=3D3D3D20 =3D
> > =3D3D3D20
> > > >=20
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >*//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list*<http://www.freelis
> > > ts.org/archives/si-list>
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > or at our remote archives:
> > > >=3D3D3D20  =3D
> > *http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages*<http://groups
> > > .yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages>
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable=20
> at: =3D3D3D20
> > > > *http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu* <http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu>=3D20
> > > =3D3D3D20  =3D3D3D3D20=3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > >=20
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the=3D20
> > > Subject field=3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20  or to administer your membership from a web page, go =
to:
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > *//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list*<http://www.freelist
> > > s.org/webpage/si-list>
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > For help:
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject=3D20
> > > field =3D3D3D20=3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D20  List technical documents are available at:
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > *http://www.si-list.net* <http://www.si-list.net/>
> > =3D3D3D20  List=3D20
> > > >archives are viewable at:
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > *//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list*<http://www.freelis
> > > ts.org/archives/si-list>
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > or at our remote archives:
> > > >=3D3D3D20  =3D
> > *http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages*<http://groups
> > > .yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages>
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable=20
> at: =3D3D3D20
> > > > *http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu* <http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu>=20
> =3D3D3D20 =3D
> > =3D3D3D20
> > > >=20
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the=3D20
> > > Subject field=3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20  or to administer your membership from a web page, go =
to:
> > > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > > For help:
> > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject=3D20
> > > field =3D3D3D20=3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20  List technical documents are available at:
> > > >                 http://www.si-list.net =3D3D3D20
> > > > List archives are viewable at:    =3D3D3D20
> > > >                 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > > > or at our remote archives:
> > > >                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > > >                 http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > > >  =3D3D3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > >=3D3D3D20
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the
> > Subject field
> > >=3D20  or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > >=3D20
> > > For help:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject
> > field =3D20 =3D20
> > >List technical documents are available at:
> > >                 http://www.si-list.net =3D20
> > > List archives are viewable at:    =3D3D20
> > >           //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > > or at our remote archives:
> > >           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > >           http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > >  =3D3D20
> > >=3D20
> > >=3D20
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the
> > Subject field
> > >=3D20  or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > >=3D20
> > > For help:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject
> > field =3D20 =3D20
> > >List technical documents are available at:
> > >                 http://www.si-list.net =3D20
> > > List archives are viewable at:    =3D20
> > >           //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > > or at our remote archives:
> > >           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > >           http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > >  =3D20
> > >=3D20
> > >=3D20
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the=20
> Subject field
> >=20
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >=20
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >=20
> >=20
> > List technical documents are available at:
> >                 http://www.si-list.net
> >=20
> > List archives are viewable at:    =20
> >             //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> >             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >             http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >  =20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field


List technical documents are available at:
                http://www.si-list.net

List archives are viewable at:     
                //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
  

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