[SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs

  • From: Hassan O. Ali <hassan@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: "si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:10:33 -0400

 
          BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }
Our layout folks here have no problem matching to within +/-1mil, and
that is the spec we use! But we don't usually have many diffpairs - 32
at most. 

        I guess the 60ps XAUI interconnect skew allocation is for signal
integrity/timing purposes. In a real system, where EMI may also be of
concern, a 60ps skew with all its common-mode voltage/current
implications may be too much.  

        Best regards. 

        Hassan.
 On Tue 10/20/09 11:41 AM , Vinu Arumugham vinu@xxxxxxxxx sent:
  The 3.125Gbps XAUI spec. allocates 60ps for interconnect skew. So as
Lee 
 wrote, in theory 300 mil skew is acceptable. However, I agree with
Jeff 
 Loyer's approach. If it is easy to do +/-2.5 mil matching, the rest
is 
 margin for other impairments that are more difficult to control. 
 Thanks, 
 Vinu 
 Nash, Timothy J wrote: 
 > I agree with that rule of thumb, except... 
 > 
 > Many layout folks complain that we sometimes over-constrain our
designs. That is to say, whether hand-routed or auto-routed, the DRC
constraints can be prohibitive - especially when dealing with wide
matched-length differential busses on minimal layer counts. I think it
is important to keep in mind that there is no magic number, rather the
number is a function of the characteristics of the interface. I would
agree that if you are only trying to match a few diff pairs or you
have more than enough routing layers then matching to +/- 2.5 mils is
a non-issue. But, why make it difficult matching to +/- 2.5 mils when
100 mils would suffice? The bottom line is, rules of thumb can be
dangerous if we forget the caveats associated with them. 
 > 
 > Tim 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > -----Original Message----- 
 > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[1]] On Behalf Of Joel Brown 
 > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:54 AM 
 > To: 'Loyer, Jeff' 
 > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [2] 
 > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs 
 > 
 > We use a similar approach but use 5 mils. It is a number I have
seen in 
 > various design guidelines including PCI express published by Intel.

 > I think Jeff is right it's easier and faster to have a one size
fits all 
 > rule even if it is overly conservative than to have to scrutinize
each route 
 > to see if the length matching is below some number related to rise
time. 
 > Our layout guy never has complained. 
 > 
 > Joel 
 > 
 > 
 > -----Original Message----- 
 > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[3]] On 
 > Behalf Of Loyer, Jeff 
 > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:21 AM 
 > To: steve weir; Lee Ritchey 
 > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [4] 
 > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs 
 > 
 > After fighting this (how tightly must my diff pair be aligned?)
forever, 
 > I've taken a more pragmatic approach. I have my CAD folks use
+/-2.5 mils 
 > for ALL their differential pairs. This seems to be the quickest for
all 
 > involved. 
 > 
 > 1) CAD folks tell me that if they're going to match within 100
mils, 
 > matching within 2.5 mils isn't much different. They don't care. 
 > 2) They use the same constraints for ALL diff pairs - less chance
for 
 > messing that up, much quicker. They like that, A LOT!!! 
 > 3) I don't spend any time worrying that they didn't match some diff
pair 
 > correctly, including accounting for multiple boards, etc. 
 > 
 > Of course, it does have the detrimental effect of lessening my
workload and 
 > hence my innate value (providing expert guidance on exactly how
much 
 > matching is required for each bus), but I'll take it. I have more
job 
 > security when the design is done more reliably and quickly. 
 > 
 > Does it make anyone else giggle that someone is hoping we'll
provide a 
 > complete Design Guide via e-mail? I would suggest to the original
poster 
 > that you'll need some other means to supply all the guidelines
you'll need 
 > to properly design a high-speed interface. Asking for specific 
 > clarification is one thing, to ask for all the guidelines necessary
for a 
 > complete design is another. 
 > 
 > My $0.02... 
 > 
 > Jeff Loyer 
 > 
 > -----Original Message----- 
 > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[5]] On 
 > Behalf Of steve weir 
 > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:43 AM 
 > To: Lee Ritchey 
 > Cc: Peterson, James F (EHCOE); si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [6] 
 > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs 
 > 
 > Lee, If the driver is really slow or the path very long that might
be 
 > OK. For a clean driver on modest length links, 50ps skew can run
50% or 
 > more of Tr/Tf. I don't like that much mode conversion. 
 > 
 > Best Regards, 
 > 
 > 
 > Steve. 
 > Lee Ritchey wrote: 
 > 
 >> Actually, I was being conservative at 100 mils. A mismatch of 300
mils 
 >> total is acceptable throughout the total path. 300 mils is roughly
50 
 >> pSec.out of a 320 pSec bit interval. 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >>> [Original Message] 
 >>> From: Peterson, James F (EHCOE)  
 >>> To:  
 >>> Date: 10/20/2009 6:09:07 AM 
 >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs

 >>> 
 >>> One comment on length matching at 100 mils : a lot of times the
board 
 >>> we're looking at is only one section of the interface. There is
often 
 >>> two more boards involved (a backplane and endpoint). When we say
100 
 >>> mils matched lengths, are we saying total matched length or at
each 
 >>> board (so total could be 300 mils in that case)? The thread below
says 
 >>> "matched at the receiver", which implies total, so the 100 mils
should 
 >>> be budgeted through 3 boards. 
 >>> 
 >>> Regards, 
 >>> Jim Peterson 
 >>> Honeywell 
 >>> 
 >>> -----Original Message----- 
 >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[9]] 
 >>> On Behalf Of steve weir 
 >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:13 AM 
 >>> To: icer world 
 >>> Cc: Lee Ritchey; Paul Hurst; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [10]; chundi
srikanth; 
 >>> Lambert Simonovich 
 >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs

 >>> 
 >>> 1) Matching much closer than 1/4 Tr/Tf offers little value by
itself. 
 >>> 100mils translates to about 16ps skew. That corresponds to a 64ns
Tr/Tf 
 >>> 
 >>> for a 3.125G link which is a little to the outside, but it is not

 >>> horrible. I would rephrase Lee's advice as: Don't take any 
 >>> extraordinary measures to match closer than 1/4 Tr/Tf as seen at
the 
 >>> receiver. The longer the link, the slower Tr/Tf will be. There is
a 
 >>> good treatment on this in Eric Bogatin's "Signal Integrity
Simplified". 
 >>> 
 >>> If you get very tight matching truly for free, then fine. But
obsessing 
 >>> 
 >>> about mechanical match to tight tolerances does not improve the
design. 
 >>> 
 >>> It can in fact harm it if the matching is done with dense
serpentines 
 >>> which introduce their own dispersion and timing skew that is not 
 >>> properly accounted in some tools. 
 >>> 
 >>> 2) Continuous return path is very important. Diff tolerates
obscenities 
 >>> 
 >>> like crossing moats, but at undesirable costs. The best answer is
don't 
 >>> 
 >>> interrupt the return path. 
 >>> 
 >>> 3) Surface ground guards are more often unintended resonators
than of 
 >>> specific value. See if the cross-talk can be satisfied with
spacing. 
 >>> If it can't, then consider alternatives. 
 >>> 
 >>> 4) I am not clear on what you are trying to recommend. Are you
talking 
 >>> about termination at both ends of the link, or even and odd mode 
 >>> terminations? 
 >>> 
 >>> 5) An appropriate stitch density helps with EMC and signal
integrity. 
 >>> Follow Bruce Archambeault's hierarchy on layer assignments and
your life 
 >>> 
 >>> will be good: 
 >>> i. Route on one layer that faces a contiguous plane. 
 >>> ii. Switch between layers on either side of the same contiguous
plane. 
 >>> iii. Switch between layers that reference planes on the same DC 
 >>> potential that are adequately stitched together. This is often 
 >>> misunderstood as needing to assign a return stitch via near each 
 >>> transition. The point is to raise the resonant frequency of the 
 >>> structure sufficiently so that it won't be a problem to the
signal. 
 >>> iv. If you must switch between layers that are stitched with
bypass caps 
 >>> 
 >>> and planar capacitance. Be wary of PDN resonances in the signal 
 >>> frequency range. These will tend to occur at much lower frequency
than 
 >>> cavity resonances. 
 >>> 
 >>> Steve. 
 >>> 
 >>> icer world wrote: 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> 1) length matching must be consided seriously and mismatch
should be 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> below 100mils; 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> 2) generally speaking,the differential pairs impedance must keep

 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> 100ohm and the ground return path must not be choped ; 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> 3) the ground guarding trace should keep two times of
differential 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> trace width away from the differantial pairs,which can not
influences 
 >>> the differential pairs impedance and avoid crosstalk issues; 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> 4) using serial and parallel matching resistors simultaneously
for 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> debug ; 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> 5) changing layers is not expected,but if necessary ,you should
place 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> a groung via near the signal via ; 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> the above is just an advice ,and you'd better do a simulatiom to

 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> decide the rules of matching resistors and crosstalk; 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> ________________________________ 
 >>>> From: Lee Ritchey  
 >>>> To: Paul Hurst ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [13] 
 >>>> Cc: chundi srikanth ; Lambert Simonovich 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>  
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 11:46:36 PM 
 >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS
pairs 
 >>>> 
 >>>> Length matching does not need to be tighter than 100 mils. 
 >>>> 
 >>>> It is not necessary to back drill vias used to connect component
pins 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> to 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> traces or to change layers. The 0.6 pF or so capacitance does
not 
 >>>> adversely affect the signals at this data rate. 
 >>>> 
 >>>> It is not necessary to put "ground" vias next to routing vias as
long 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> as 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> the PDS is well designed." 
 >>>> 
 >>>> "Guard" traces have no value. Proper spacing to avoid crosstalk 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> does. 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>> The "rule of thumb" for spacing given, while crude, is not far
off. 
 >>>> 
 >>>> Lee Ritchey 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>>> [Original Message] 
 >>>>> From: Paul Hurst  
 >>>>> To:  
 >>>>> Cc: chundi srikanth ; Lambert Simonovich 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>  
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>>> Date: 10/18/2009 5:45:08 PM 
 >>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS
pairs 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Srikanth, 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Additional to Bert's comments:- 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 1) Match the lengths of the pairs exactly 
 >>>>> 2) Use a solid ground return 
 >>>>> 3) Avoid stubs by design or by using stub-drilling 
 >>>>> 4) If you have vias in the path use a small drill and a large 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> anti-pad and 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> place a ground via next to each signal via 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Regards 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Paul 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> -----Original Message----- 
 >>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [20] 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [21]] 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>> On 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>>> Behalf Of Lambert Simonovich 
 >>>>> Sent: 16 October 2009 21:57 
 >>>>> To: 'chundi srikanth'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [22] 
 >>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS
pairs 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Srikanth, 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> A rough rule of thumb is greater than 3 times trace width
separation 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>> between 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>>> pairs. Using a 2D field solver will ultimately give you the
crosstalk 
 >>>>> coupling factor for the exact geometry in your stackup, and
dictate 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> the 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> routing rules you need to follow to satisfy your noise budget. 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Adding GND guarding will more often than not present more
issues than 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> it 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> solves. You should stitch these guard traces at regular
intervals 
 >>>>> approximately 1/10 of the wavelength of the highest frequency 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> component of 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> the aggressor signal to avoid it from resonating and coupling
noise 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> back 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> onto other adjacent traces. This further reduces routing
density of 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> the 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> board. By the time you factor in the additional space of one
trace 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> width 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> between the guard trace and Diff pair, plus the additional via 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> stitching, 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> you will find you are already at 3 times separation between
pairs and 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> you 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> would gain back more real estate. 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Regards, 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Bert Simonovich 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> -----Original Message----- 
 >>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [23] 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [24]] 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>> On 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>>> Behalf Of chundi srikanth 
 >>>>> Sent: October-16-09 12:40 PM 
 >>>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [25] 
 >>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Hi Techies, 
 >>>>> We have a 12-layer board in which we have lot of differential
LVDS 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> pairs 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> operating at several hundreds MHz. And we have SERDES signals 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>> (differential 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>>> TX & RX pairs) operating at CPRI rate-4 i.e., 3Gbps. So can you
just 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> share 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> me some inputs on exactly what are the guidelines to be
followed 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> while 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> routing these signals. And is GND gaurding between the
differential 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> pairs 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> improve the SI?Please share or refer me any documents in which
i can 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>> get 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>> Good information on High-Speed design guidelines. 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Thanks 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> With Best Regards 
 >>>>> Srikanth 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>>
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 > List archives are viewable at: 
 > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list [104] 
 > or at our remote archives: 
 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages [105] 
 > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: 
 > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu [106] 
 > 
 > 
 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 > To unsubscribe from si-list: 
 > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [107] with 'unsubscribe' in the
Subject field 
 > 
 > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: 
 > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list [108] 
 > 
 > For help: 
 > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [109] with 'help' in the Subject
field 
 > 
 > 
 > List technical documents are available at: 
 > http://www.si-list.net [110] 
 > 
 > List archives are viewable at: 
 > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list [111] 
 > or at our remote archives: 
 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages [112] 
 > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: 
 > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu [113] 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 To unsubscribe from si-list: 
 si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [114] with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
field 
 or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: 
 http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list [115] 
 For help: 
 si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [116] with 'help' in the Subject field 
 List technical documents are available at: 
 http://www.si-list.net [117] 
 List archives are viewable at: 
 http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list [118] 
 or at our remote archives: 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages [119] 
 Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: 
 http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu [120] 


Links:
------
[1]
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[118]
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[119]
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[120]
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------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field


List technical documents are available at:
                http://www.si-list.net

List archives are viewable at:     
                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
  

Other related posts: