[SI-LIST] Re: Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance
- From: "Grossman, Brett" <brett.grossman@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'Ken.Cantrell@xxxxxxxxxxx'" <Ken.Cantrell@xxxxxxxxxxx>,si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:25:13 -0800
Ken,
Sorry to redirect this thread a bit, but my 2 cents...
Various methods for extracting dielectric properties from measured values
are available in IPC-TM-650. I have tried some of these and though they get
the job done, most are somewhat painful. We have also used the TDR method in
an effort to sanity check values.
I believe that some vendors (perhaps others as well) have fixtures available
for the 8753 and other VNA's and for some impedance analyzers that allow you
to fixture a sample and extract dielectric properties. However, I can't
speak to their performance from experience.
IMHO you hit the nail on the head with your comment of 'derived
permittivity'. Since all the dielectric properties end up being derived from
some other measurement, my belief is that they have a tendency to be fairly
sensitive to the derivation method used and the accuracy of the initial
measurements. That was one reason I tried the methods from the IPC spec when
engaging with a new supplier.
Regards,
-Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Cantrell [mailto:Ken.Cantrell@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:14 AM
To: omism@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance
Pete, Ozgur, et. al,
That's the right formula, but the trick is in actually knowing what the loss
tangent is. Vendor data for standard formulations (FR40X, GTEK, Rogers,
etc.)can be quite divergent from TDR derived permittivity (then up scaling
the permittivty to the frequency of operation), and fitting the loss tangent
to the dielectric portion of the total measured loss - Vout/Vin (dB).
Anyone know of any good texts or literature sources on the subject?
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Ozgur Misman
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:38 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance
Actually formula do exist,
I must have missed the capacitance in tmy previous E-mail
let me rewrite it as
Gd=2*pi*f *tand*C (capacitance)
C=Er*Co
Co= Eo A/d
Mick is right in saying that the dielectric loss is a property of the
material and conductance depends on the circuit as well. That link is in
the capacitance term.
The formula is derived assuming a resistance in parallel with
capaciatance.and conductance is defined as 1/resistance.
Hope this clarifies
Ozgur Misman
---------------------- Forwarded by Ozgur Misman/CHAZ/AAWW on 11/01/2001
09:34 AM ---------------------------
11/01/2001 08:51 AM
Ozgur Misman - Chandler - 5080
Sr Engineer
01 We've Just Begun
To: plaflamm@xxxxxxxx
cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance (Document
link: Ozgur Misman)
Hi Peter,
I think the for mula is : Gd (conductance)=2*pi*frequency*tand(loss
tangent)* Eo (permittivity of the free space;8.854e-12f/m)* dielectric
constant;Er
Ozgur Misman
Amkor Technology
Peter LaFlamme <plaflamm@xxxxxxxx>@freelists.org on 11/01/2001 06:45:13 AM
Please respond to plaflamm@xxxxxxxx
Sent by: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
cc:
Subject: [SI-LIST] Loss tangent and Dielectric conductance
Hi SI Folks,
I would like to know the relationship between Loss Tangent and Dielectric
loss. In other words, If I know the "loss tangent" at a given frequency for
a particular dielectric what is the formula to convert this into the
Dielectric conductance(Gd) ?
Thanks,
Peter
--
Peter LaFlamme
Applied Micro Circuits Corp.
Staff System Applications Engineer
200 Minuteman Rd, 3rd Floor
Andover, MA 01810
978-247-8470 phone
978-623-0055 Fax
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