Chris, how slow is slow? If you assert either a line or a load step, what does the recovery look like, ie characteristic freq of ringing, and # of cycles to diminish to 10% of the final value? It sounds like the darn thing is conditionally stable. The layout and capacitor choices can aggravate that making it unstable. For fast turnarounds on little test circuits, I really like ExpressPCB. About $60 gets you three little 2.5 x 3.8 two sided boards which is darn near perfect for prototyping little power supplies, amplifiers and such. They turn around in one to two days. For about $100. you can get a couple of small four layer boards. It definitely beats playing with Cu tape from Bishop Graphics. Regards, Steve. At 09:10 AM 9/24/2004 -0400, Landrum, Chris wrote: >Steve, > >No need for a picture. I have dead-bugged a transistor on a board and >then "wired" it in. Input is a 12 AWG wire about 0.5in long (2) 10uF >caps right at the pin. Output is much better with the pin being >directly soldered to the PCB. The output cap is very close to the pin. >I would immediately suspect the layout, however, if it were at fault, I >would think I would see inductive voltage spikes on the input or >something. I don't see any misbehaving other than the slow response >time. Also, this very same regulator has been attempted before (i.e. a >proper layout was completed) with the same, poor results. However, this >ckt works perfectly on the vendor's eval system. I am in the process of >finishing a layout to implement the ckt, however I was hoping to have >concrete evidence that it will work before I build boards. I realize >this is difficult without a proper layout, but it would help give me >that warm and fuzzy feeling inside. > >-----Original Message----- >From: steve weir [mailto:weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx]=20 >Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:59 AM >To: Landrum, Chris >Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Linear Regulator Problems > >Chris, if you cannot get models, then you can set-up some >characterization=20 >to obtain the response. I think one of the links posted a bit earlier=20 >pointed to an article that has examples for the case of the once >ubiquitous=20 >LM317. > >When you say that the layout has changed for the worse how bad are we=20 >talking about? Can you send me a picture of just that section without=20 >getting into trouble? > >Regards, > >Steve. >At 08:51 AM 9/24/2004 -0400, Landrum, Chris wrote: > >Steve, > > > >Thanks for the suggestions. I most likely can get models of the > >transistor, but I assume I will need a model of the internal error amp, > >etc.. I would love to run this through Spice, however, I do not have a > >model for the "feedback control". As you have guessed, my regulator is > >home grown, however it is within a custom ASIC designed by another > >vendor. I will attempt to get models for it, but it is probably not > >likely I will be able to get one. =3D20 > > > >Thanks. > > > >Chris Landrum > >PCBA Design Engineer > >Maxtor Corporation > >333 South Street > >Shrewsbury, MA 01545 > >508-770-2282 (d) > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: steve weir [mailto:weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx]=3D20 > >Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:42 PM > >To: Landrum, Chris > >Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Linear Regulator Problems > > > >Chris, some more detailed answers- > >At 10:49 AM 9/23/2004 -0400, Landrum, Chris wrote: > > >Alright, I'll start with a new question. Based on the recent emails, >I > > >have no idea whether or not this belongs in this forum, but I will >ask > > >anyway. > > > > > > > > >I am working on a linear regulator that is exhibiting very poor > > >transient response. At first I assumed that the amount of output > > >capacitance was to blame. After dropping the amount of output > > >capacitance, I found little change. I have another board that uses >the > > >same circuit (same NPN-BJT, different decoupling, same load, better > > >layout) which does not have the problem. I attempted to mimic the >good > > >board's output decoupling, but the result was the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I then noticed that the good board was using a tantalum output > > >capacitor, while I am using Ceramic. I am aware that tantalums do >have > > >a higher ESR than ceramics, so I attempted to use a tantalum. The > > >result was that the base started to oscillate (became un-stable). I > > >then tried adding a resistor in series with a ceramic cap to >"simulate" > > >a higher ESR value. This actually seemed to help a little, but not > > >enough to declare any type of success. Since the base does not > > >oscillate when using the ceramics, I assume that the regulator is > > >stable. > > > > > > >Not just any value will do. Also, the operating point of your > >transistor=3D20 > >matters. Have you put this through SPICE? > > > > > > > > > > >I began to suspect a problem with base drive current. The transistor >I > > >am using is an NPN that has a Hfe of 100 at Vce =3D3D 2V and Ic of = >1A. >=3D > >My > > >measured transient is less than 1A (~850mA). The base driver is > >capable > > >of sourcing 20mA. I am using 3.3V to make 1.2V. With my >calculations, > > >I don't see a problem with base drive vs. gain. > > > > > > > > > > > >Some questions: > > > > > >What else might be contributing to my slow response times? > > > > > >Does anyone have a suggestion for obtaining an accurate bode plot of >a > > >linear regulator freq response? I would like to figure out a way to > > >check phase margin. > > > > > >If you have models for the transistors, and know your operating > >currents,=3D20 > >this is straightforward in SPICE. You can also do it the old fashioned > >way=3D20 > >with graph paper if you account for the operating point(s) of your > >transistor. > > > > > > > > > > > > >On the same topic... I have learned that a good method for estimating > > >the variety of decoupling caps required in a PDS is to look at the > > >problem in the freq domain. Based on my max transient, I have > > >calculated that I would need about 30uF of capacitance on the output. > > >But this contradicts what is recommended on the output of a linear > > >regulator doesn't it? Most of the time, only values between 4.7uF >and > > >10uF are used. Wouldn't 30uF on the output slow the response time? >In > > >my circuit, I have noticed the circuit does respond faster with less > > >capacitance, but the overall ripple is greater.... What is the best > > >way to balance these conflicting requirements BEFORE I get in the >lab? > > > >Yes, a bigger capacitor does slow down the response, but it lowers >the=3D20 > >amplitude as well. A problem can occur when the compensated >amplifier=3D20 > >response which has inductive characteristics, crosses the = >capacitor=3D20 > >response. This is the evil anti-resonance. A really big, low ESR=3D20 > >capacitor and an amplifier with a low frequency audio pole can result >in > > > >nasty behavior down in the low KHz. > > > >I assume that you are rolling your own regulator due to cost=3D20 > >considerations. Since you will be mass producing, you really must >push=3D20 > >this through SPICE and do a Monte-Carlo analysis for your four corners, > >or=3D20 > >expect to see unwelcome surprises. In a plug for some of those ICs >that > > > >you probably don't want to spend money on, the people at LTC, Maxim, > >etc,=3D20 > >have solved the problems that you are dealing with. LTC has a very >nice > > > >low dropout linear controller in an SO8. You supply the external=3D20 > >FET. These were developed for PII systems and have closed-loop >response > > > >out to 1MHz or better. > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks. > > > > > >Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > > >For help: > > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > >List FAQ wiki page is located at: > > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > > > > >List technical documents are available at: > > > http://www.si-list.org > > > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > >or at our remote archives: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > >For help: > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > >List FAQ wiki page is located at: > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > > >List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.org > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > >or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > >List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > >List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu