[SI-LIST] Re: Linear Regulator Problems
- From: "Landrum, Chris" <chris_landrum@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:51:55 -0400
Steve,
Thanks for the suggestions. I most likely can get models of the
transistor, but I assume I will need a model of the internal error amp,
etc.. I would love to run this through Spice, however, I do not have a
model for the "feedback control". As you have guessed, my regulator is
home grown, however it is within a custom ASIC designed by another
vendor. I will attempt to get models for it, but it is probably not
likely I will be able to get one. =20
Thanks.
Chris Landrum
PCBA Design Engineer
Maxtor Corporation
333 South Street
Shrewsbury, MA 01545
508-770-2282 (d)
-----Original Message-----
From: steve weir [mailto:weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:42 PM
To: Landrum, Chris
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Linear Regulator Problems
Chris, some more detailed answers-
At 10:49 AM 9/23/2004 -0400, Landrum, Chris wrote:
>Alright, I'll start with a new question. Based on the recent emails, I
>have no idea whether or not this belongs in this forum, but I will ask
>anyway.
>
>
>I am working on a linear regulator that is exhibiting very poor
>transient response. At first I assumed that the amount of output
>capacitance was to blame. After dropping the amount of output
>capacitance, I found little change. I have another board that uses the
>same circuit (same NPN-BJT, different decoupling, same load, better
>layout) which does not have the problem. I attempted to mimic the good
>board's output decoupling, but the result was the same.
>
>
>
>
>I then noticed that the good board was using a tantalum output
>capacitor, while I am using Ceramic. I am aware that tantalums do have
>a higher ESR than ceramics, so I attempted to use a tantalum. The
>result was that the base started to oscillate (became un-stable). I
>then tried adding a resistor in series with a ceramic cap to "simulate"
>a higher ESR value. This actually seemed to help a little, but not
>enough to declare any type of success. Since the base does not
>oscillate when using the ceramics, I assume that the regulator is
>stable.
>
Not just any value will do. Also, the operating point of your
transistor=20
matters. Have you put this through SPICE?
>
>
>I began to suspect a problem with base drive current. The transistor I
>am using is an NPN that has a Hfe of 100 at Vce =3D 2V and Ic of 1A. =
My
>measured transient is less than 1A (~850mA). The base driver is
capable
>of sourcing 20mA. I am using 3.3V to make 1.2V. With my calculations,
>I don't see a problem with base drive vs. gain.
>
>
>
>Some questions:
>
>What else might be contributing to my slow response times?
>
>Does anyone have a suggestion for obtaining an accurate bode plot of a
>linear regulator freq response? I would like to figure out a way to
>check phase margin.
If you have models for the transistors, and know your operating
currents,=20
this is straightforward in SPICE. You can also do it the old fashioned
way=20
with graph paper if you account for the operating point(s) of your
transistor.
>
>
>On the same topic... I have learned that a good method for estimating
>the variety of decoupling caps required in a PDS is to look at the
>problem in the freq domain. Based on my max transient, I have
>calculated that I would need about 30uF of capacitance on the output.
>But this contradicts what is recommended on the output of a linear
>regulator doesn't it? Most of the time, only values between 4.7uF and
>10uF are used. Wouldn't 30uF on the output slow the response time? In
>my circuit, I have noticed the circuit does respond faster with less
>capacitance, but the overall ripple is greater.... What is the best
>way to balance these conflicting requirements BEFORE I get in the lab?
Yes, a bigger capacitor does slow down the response, but it lowers the=20
amplitude as well. A problem can occur when the compensated amplifier=20
response which has inductive characteristics, crosses the capacitor=20
response. This is the evil anti-resonance. A really big, low ESR=20
capacitor and an amplifier with a low frequency audio pole can result in
nasty behavior down in the low KHz.
I assume that you are rolling your own regulator due to cost=20
considerations. Since you will be mass producing, you really must push=20
this through SPICE and do a Monte-Carlo analysis for your four corners,
or=20
expect to see unwelcome surprises. In a plug for some of those ICs that
you probably don't want to spend money on, the people at LTC, Maxim,
etc,=20
have solved the problems that you are dealing with. LTC has a very nice
low dropout linear controller in an SO8. You supply the external=20
FET. These were developed for PII systems and have closed-loop response
out to 1MHz or better.
>
>
>Thanks.
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>
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