[SI-LIST] Re: HSpice or HyperLynx
- From: Bill Hargin <billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: ajmani@xxxxxxxxxx, alexh1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:58:18 -0400
Hello Alex:
Good questions ...
> If you had to pick either HSpice or HyperLynx for board level interconnect
> simulation which would you pick?
>
> For myself, I like the flexibility of HSpice (can use Spice and/or IBIS).
> If you have a model, you can simulate anything you can think of. Con is
> that it's somewhat hard to use.
One question here surrounds how well you know HSPICE at this point. If
you're not up to speed with it, plan for a fairly significant learning
curve, plus a set-up time "penalty" for each simulation (as compared with
HyperLynx, for example).
> On the other hand, with HyperLynx you can very quickly simulate a
> transmission line with an IBIS driver but you have to use what they give
> you.
As a point of clarification, HyperLynx--and most IBIS-based simulators--will
read in any IBIS file that you can pull off the Web, or request from your IC
manufacturer. IBIS, obviously, is simpler than Spice, and there will (by
definition) always be fewer IBIS models than Spice models, but the slope on
the "# of IBIS models available curve" is positive, and fairly steep.
HyperLynx already has some "works with HSPICE" support, and I understand
from the HyperLynx guys (now part of Mentor) that the tools may be adding
additional HSPICE support in the not-too-distant future, for the very reason
you cite: a lot of buffers out there in only HSPICE format, or--as Todd
Westerhoff said--there may be technological reasons to only use Spice models
for simulation because of a limitation in IBIS vis-a-vis Spice.
> Also has the ability to import a PCB layout file and
> simulate based on
> routed trace geometry. I find the latter capability of dubious value, if I
> find a problem after layout is complete it's probably too late. Also seems
> to be about twice the cost of Avant Hspice (now Synopsys) for the full
> suite.
Take a closer look at HyperLynx's LineSim tool. It sounds like you like the
leverage of resolving things pre-layout, which is a good route to pursue (no
pun intended). Going the HyperLynx route here gives you the option of using
it with HSPICE down the road (as budget allows), which really gives you the
best of both worlds.
Best Regards,
Bill Hargin
Direct: 425-702-0744
Fax: 425-702-0305
Cognition Consulting
Electronic Design Software and Consulting
http://www.CognitionConsulting.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Ravinder Ajmani
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:40 AM
> To: alexh1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSpice or HyperLynx
>
>
>
>
> Alex,
> I have been using HyperLynx for nearly 6 years and I love its ease of use
> and flexibility. Over the years, they have constantly added new features,
> such as Crosstalk module, multi-board simulation, etc. For me its ability
> to simulate fully or partially routed board is very helpful. I
> can also do
> coupled line simulation, since the Crosstalk module includes a field
> solver. I can ask my layout engineer to first route the critical
> nets, and
> as he is working with the rest of the routing, I can run quick simulations
> to determine any changes necessary. LineSim module is very helpful in
> stack and transmission line analysis before the beginning of a new design.
> I can also export nets from the layout (BoardSim) to LineSim, and then
> carry out different what-if scenarios. Its accuracy is
> comparable to other
> more expensive tools such as XTK and SigNoise.
>
> I have read many nice things about HSPICE, but I find it hard to spend the
> time needed to learn this tool. It is certainly more accurate than IBIS
> based tools, and you have the ability to perform detailed
> simulations. But
> it is much slower than IBIS based tools, and it can be nightmare to
> simulate a large number of nets on a routed board. I started with
> HyperLynx by obtaining their demo diskettes, and was able to run
> simulations in less than an hour. Same about the Crosstalk module.
>
> By the way, I am not getting paid by Mentor/Innoveda/HyperLynx to write
> this. The person who sold me this tool has since left the company. Also,
> these are my personal opinions only.
>
> Regards, Ravinder
> PCB Development and Design Department
> IBM Corporation
> Email: ajmani@xxxxxxxxxx
> ******************************************************************
> *********
> Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
> .... Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
>
> "Alex Horvath"
>
> <alexh1@sbcglobal To:
> <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> .net> cc:
>
> Sent by: Subject:
> [SI-LIST] HSpice or HyperLynx
> si-list-bounce@fr
>
> eelists.org
>
>
>
>
>
> 08/08/2002 08:38
>
> PM
>
> Please respond to
>
> alexh1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If you had to pick either HSpice or HyperLynx for board level interconnect
> simulation which would you pick?
>
>
> For myself, I like the flexibility of HSpice (can use Spice and/or IBIS).
> If you have a model, you can simulate anything you can think of. Con is
> that it's somewhat hard to use.
>
> On the other hand, with HyperLynx you can very quickly simulate a
> transmission line with an IBIS driver but you have to use what they give
> you. Also has the ability to import a PCB layout file and
> simulate based on
> routed trace geometry. I find the latter capability of dubious value, if I
> find a problem after layout is complete it's probably too late. Also seems
> to be about twice the cost of Avant Hspice (now Synopsys) for the full
> suite.
>
> I welcome any comments especially from people who are familiar with both
> tools.
>
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