In a message dated 3/25/2006 8:24:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Gsdman2@xxxxxxx writes: While you can use phenotype as a tool to judge what a breeding pair might potentially produce, you should never assume that the phenotype in any one breeding partner, or even in both breeding partners, is all you can expect in the litter. I totally agree. AND I agree with your wanting a "good" bitch from a "great" litter. If her littermates are great, the odds are on your side that she will produce better than herself. (I didn't think that needed to be said.) The reverse is just as true. If one were to take a so-so bitch from a mediocre litter, despite having a few notables in the pedigree, odds aren't on their side. If you re-read my original post, I said that phenotype (in this case, "show quality") was only the beginning. The problem I have is building a "foundation" on something less than what a person would aspire to have. Surely when something isn't good enough, you've heard it said "take her home and breed her"? We can all find where once in a while, in a generation or two, maybe three, something has come of it. (And, I'm not talking about a coat or a torn ear or injury keeping something from being "good enough). OK, if you want to do the generation, or two, or three thing, so be it. I'd rather have a bitch who is "good enough", with a mother who was "good enough", with sisters who were "good enough", etc. from a cookie-cutter litter deep in quality. Of course, it isn't foolproof. To me, it's a much better starting place, though. Kathy three generations of Dual Titled Champions live here! visit _Pine Hill German Shepherd Dogs_ (http://www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds/) ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues ============================================================================