[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: This is gonna cause Trouble
- From: "Steve Grainger" <hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Elsyd1@xxxxxxx" <Elsyd1@xxxxxxx>, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:55:04 -0600
to the admin that have written me:..I respectfully disagree...not too long
ago..the topic of "white" dogs was addressed..we were told the thread was
closed..most recently the German vs American thread was closed...so..if the
topic becomes too personal between a couple of people...then address those
people ask them to go private..or keep to the context of the subject
matter..but don't close the thread..this is what I am talking about.
C.Grainger
> [Original Message]
> From: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Elsyd1@xxxxxxx <Elsyd1@xxxxxxx>;
<showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 12/20/2004 11:12:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: This is gonna cause Trouble
>
>
> Christine, your suggestions below are the course the Administration does
follow, and there is nothing whatsoever that is taboo about the subject
matter. We try very hard not to interfere in informative discussions.
Nothing is forbidden simply because it is controversial, with the exception
of personal attacks and attacks on the AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC style of dog,
showing and breeding, and I am perplexed at what either your or Syd means
by anyone being "cut off". We do not do that.
>
> Many here have experienced what Sue relates, where proponents of Import
lines have trashed the AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC system and the people and dogs
who participate in it, critical of the lack of a requirement of hip
certification, breed surveys, working titles, etc. for conformation and
breeding, and in fact that was the scenario that triggered the process
which ultimately resulted in the existence of Showgsd-l. That sort of
criticism is not appropriate here - since this List is FOR the people who
exhibit and breed under AKC/CKC rules. Within that context, discussion of
the import lines and import ways of doing things is most certainly not
forbidden. There is a thin line though between discussing it and promoting
it, and the promotion is where it becomes problematic. Pushing the German
or import ways at AKC/CKC people is what is not allowed. We recognize that
more and more people are involved in both the AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC world and
other venues, all of which is fine, so long as all here recognize that this
List is FOR discussion by the AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC people about those
activities and dogs, and issues and topics related thereto. There are also
people who are members who are new to breeding and exhibiting or who just
want to learn what it is all about. Normally those people post very
little, if at all, but derive considerable benefit from the interaction of
the "experts". There are many many email lists on the Internet. Some are
at Beginner Level, some are at Intermediate Level. Showgsd-l is geared to
Expert Level, and as such, basic and beginner questions and posts are
discouraged. What we in the administration put in so much time and effort
to provide is a place for serious breeders and exhibitors to network and to
discuss the things that are of interest and importance to them concerning
the German Shepherd Dog. If people are not posting accordingly, it is not
because they can't, aren't allowed to, or shouldn't.
>
> The Administration very rarely interferes in a thread, and when we do, it
is almost always because it has become personally abusive or nasty. We do
try to referee where appropriate, but since administering the List is not
the full-time job of any of us, we don't necessarily read every post, and
do have day jobs.
>
> The entire purpose of Showgsd-l is to provide a venue for serious
discussion by the breeders, exhibitors and judges of the
AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC conformation fancy. Performance titles and activity
and brags do of course relate to that, so long as that is an occasional,
collateral topic.
>
> ANYTHING which pertains to the breeding, exhibiting and judging of German
Shepherd Dogs in the AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC 'tradition' (for lack of a better
word) is not only allowed, but encouraged, so long as it is not personally
abusive and does not PROMOTE the way it is done in other countries and
parts of the world, or ATTACK the AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC way it is done. We
have no problem at all with "heated" discussions, so long as they don't
trangress those minimal parameters. In fact, given the passion that most
of our members feel about their dogs, breeding programs, breed issues and
problems, "heated" discussions are essential.
>
> Showgsd-l has existed for a long time, and there are many members now who
may not (despite our mission statement and the rules all new members
receive) fully understand its function, or what is and is not allowed. The
Rules are VERY limited. I have included them below. Please review, and if
you see anything there which you feel restricts freedom of discussion, and
either post that to the List or feel free to email it to me privately.
>
> There is no need to create other lists in order to have the sorts of
discussions to which you refer - not only are they 'allowed' on Showgsd-l,
but that is part of the very reason Showgsd-l exists.
>
> "SHOWGSD-L RULES and POSTING RESTRICTIONS
>
> This List is specifically geared to the furtherance and promotion of the
AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC style of conformation showing and breeding of German
Shepherd Dogs. The following are posts, either by subject or by content,
which are prohibited on Showgsd-l. Violation of this prohibition will
subject the poster to administrative action. At the discretion of the
Showgsd-l management, the action taken for violation of these rules may be
a warning, restriction on posting privileges, suspension or removal:
>
> Forwarding, reproduction or use in any manner of any material which
appears on Showgsd-l without the express permission of all parties to the
post and the List management is expressly forbidden.
> Personal attacks, hostile, accusatory posts, in word or in tone, are not
allowed.
> Posts concerning politics or religion. These subjects are universally
prohibited from email lists.
> Posts which contain obscene or sexually explicit material, or which poke
fun at gender, religious, ethnic or sexually-oriented groups.
> German vs. American promotion
> Off topic posts. This List is specifically geared to the furtherance
and promotion of the AKC/CKC/GSDCA/GSDCC style of conformation showing and
breeding of German Shepherd Dogs. Anything which is not somehow related to
this topic is considered "off-topic"
> Advertising. Any post which is made in furtherance of a product, object
or service for sale, or for the personal benefit of any List member or
group of List members (other than posts having a charitable or rescue
purpose), is not allowed.
> Website updates - you may include in your signature "website updated
mm/dd/yy" with the appropriate date filled in. Other than as set forth
here, posts regarding updates to your web site are not permitted.
> Signatures - All posts should be signed with your name. Signatures may
not exceed three lines in length, and the content of the signatures must be
otherwise compliant with these rules. They may not contain advertising,
religious or political material, German v. American promotion, etc.
> Promotion of GSDs with disqualifying faults
> "Me too" posts - these are posts which merely say "I agree", or "You
are right", or "I feel the same way", without additional content. These add
nothing to the threads, but contribute greatly to the volume of posts,
causing subscribers' mailboxes to fill up quickly and overflow. Feel free
to send your supportive "me too" directly and privately to the poster if
you want them to know you agree.
> Posts which are directed at 5 people or less. These add greatly to post
volume, causing subscribers mailboxes to fill up quickly and overflow.
Please send these posts privately, not to the List.
> Welcomes, congratulations, condolences. These are private matters, and
should be sent privately, not to the List. They add greatly to post volume,
causing subscribers mailboxes to fill up quickly and overflow.
> Administrative matters and complaints. Send these privately to the
administrators at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Announcements of intended or upcoming show entries for members dogs is
prohibited.
>
> The purpose of these rules is not to be restrictive, but to provide
through Showgsd-l a resource that works for all subscribers. Please
understand that they are intended to be considerate of all subscribers."
>
>
> Margery Golant
> Showgsd-l Administrator
>
>
> ============================================================
> From: "Steve Grainger" <hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 2004/12/20 Mon AM 07:54:49 EST
> To: "Elsyd1@xxxxxxx" <Elsyd1@xxxxxxx>, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: This is gonna cause Trouble
>
> Syd has a good point..why do they cut us off? should the rules change a
> bit..maybe be more relaxed to foster good dialoge?..To me..since some have
> chosen to incorporate German lines with amercian show lines..the
discussion
> of German /Amercian is very pertinent for the List...I find it much more
> enlightneing then discusiing toenails, puppy poop, dog food brands and
> brags...if nearly all things controversial are forbidden...then what
> seperates us form a "pet List". I have heard from others privately that
> they enjoy the more "heated" discussions ...I think the Admin should
> referee when the posting gets personal...or insulting...Perhaps this is
why
> the List has lost some interest...or why others are seeking out developing
> or joining new Lists which allow more freedom of discussion. Perhaps even
> this subject matter might be considered taboo...I am not certain..but
> nonetheless..it is being discussed privately...so maybe it should be
> brought to the forefront. C.Grainger
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: <Elsyd1@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 12/19/2004 7:37:09 PM
> > Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: This is gonna get me in Trouble
> >
> > In a message dated 12/19/2004 5:19:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > ELG440@xxxxxxx writes:
> > If they want to convert us, that might be a problem.
> >
> > No problem, the admins will simply warn them, or cut them off. Syd
> >
> > SYD MAILBERG 425-432-4144
> > 23910 SE 276TH ST
> > MAPLE VALLEY, WA 98038
> > Updated Website Fabio/Viggo
> > _http://www.kingswoodgermanshepherds.homestead.com_
> > (http://kingswoodgermanshepherds.homestead.com/)
>
============================================================================
POST is Copyrighted 2004. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org
============================================================================
Other related posts:
