You might as well quit wasting your time. Some people just don't want to hear what others have to say. They've made up their minds and that's it. There may come a time when there is no alternative and a prong collar would look real good to them - unless, of course, the dog is disposed of. Lee F. -----Original Message----- From: showgsd-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:showgsd-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of grnram415@xxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:48 AM To: wernersommers@xxxxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Prong collars and Laura Werner, Other than your own dogs, do you train others or deal with JQP?? I respect your position to disagree with me.? But, I ask you this.? If you are dealing with JQP or a very hard dog, how would you handle the situation?? Laura -----Original Message----- From: Werner Sommers <wernersommers@xxxxxxxxx> To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:40 am Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Prong collars and Laura I will forever disagree with you! However I do respect your right to say what you want. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laura ...wrote. I am late on this subject but I totally disagree.? A prong/pinch collar, when used correctly,?can be a very useful training tool.? I work with many large breed and tough dogs, including Rotties and Pits.??A prong/pinch collar imitates Mom's control of her pups or the Pack leader's control of the pack.? In nature, the alpha dog grabs the neck to control?pups and any dog who challengers to their authority.? The pinch collar simulates that control.? The pinch collar also allows the dog to self-correct.?? Many years ago, I had a very HARD Lab.? I took him to a trainer who?believed in physical force to train.?( She is now? judge of GSD's.)? She caused permanent neck damage to my dog by stringing him up on a choke chain and swinging him around, to get him to comply to her demands.??He could never get past a CD in obeidience due to his pain and long term injuries.??? I have used a pinch collar on a few dogs since then.? I got compliance quickly as they mostly self corrected.? It did not take away from the dog moving out in front of me, it just gave them control.? I do not string them up on a pinch nor do I have to be overly physical in corrections.? Within?one or two sessions, the dog understands the plan and no longer needs the pinch collar.? Some dogs take longer, especially with pet people.? However, once they understand who is in charge, the pinch collar is no longer needed, even for tough dogs.? It is not for every dog but it is a good tool for dogs who need control.? Laura??? Werner http://imagegermanshepherds.com/ ?BISS Am/Can CH. Scher-Lo's Mr Karizma HIC.OFA h&e Am.CH. Hadori's Samantha OFA h&e B.O.F CH. Pointed, Lorien's Play By Play OFA h&e ? ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communicati on, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================