[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: DJD talked to Dr Keller/OVC not students
- From: "Carolyn Martello" <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <sanderhaus@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 12:33:32 -0700
One last experience we had that I want to add to this.
Many years ago we had a friend/breeder who bred her bitch to
our stud and kept a nice show bitch.
She started limping....X-rayed with breeders Vet and submitted
to OFA for pre-lims. Diagnosed with Elbow dysplasia. Placed
in a pet home. She limped for a couple of weeks so they set
it up for surgery from the Vet who X-rayed her originally.
( he had done MANY OFA X-rays for many breeders )
Once he started surgery and opened it up, and could see the actual
elbow joint...he could find absolutely NO SIGN of any wear and
tear or ANY elbow dysplasia!
I have no answers and I have no point....but I sure DO hate to think
that OFA "assumes" they should diagnose DJD because they have no
definite answer.
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.marhaven.com
-----Original Message-----
From: showgsd-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:showgsd-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Redacted sender "Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx" for DMARC
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 12:16 PM
To: sanderhaus@xxxxxxxxxxx; Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: DJD talked to Dr Keller/OVC not students
Sort of. The way it was explained to me is that UAP and OCD could be seen
on an x-ray and would be noted (that part we agree upon).
I was told if there was any wear and tear they would rate it as DJD 1,2 or
3 and when they couldn't see anything else, automatically assume FCP.
FCP is always checked when there is the result of DJD, even though it is
not visible on the x-rays.
It is explained on their web site:
The fragmented coronoid process occurs at 4 to 10 months
of age. Unlike a UAP, an FCP may not be visible radiographically
(Fig. 3). Fissures in the cartilage or slightly irregular
articular margins would be the least abnormal (Figs. 4 &
5). These changes are not evident radiographically, but the
resulting degenerative changes would eventually become evident
radiographically.
Definitive radiographic identification of FCP often is not
possible because of super-imposition of the radial head over
the medial coronoid process. In addition, the central radiographic
beam rarely intersects the cleavage line in a parallel
manner.
The diagnosis of the FCP is typically from the secondary
degenerative changes that result from the abnormality (Figs.
9& 10, page 5). These are seen as early as 7 to 8 months of
age but may not be evident until maturity. These are osteophytes
located on the proximal and lateral aspects of the
anconeal process. Similar changes on the medial humeral
epicondyle and medial aspects of the joint develop as the disorder
progresses. Sclerosis between the proximal radius and
ulna and/or an increased humeroradial joint space maybe seen
on a lateral projection.
___________________________
As far as OVC, no, not students...it is/was their head honcho. I just
pulled out an OVC form to get you a name. This was the last dog I did, someone
wanted to use him before he was 2 so I sent the x-rays up to OVC because
they used to give a permanent # at 18 mo. The vet was heather Chalmers,
DVM, Diplomate ACVR, Assistant professor, Radiology. certainly no student
<VBG>.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
visit http://www.pinehillgsds.com/
UAP and OCD can be seen easily on an X-Ray. FCP is more difficult... so the
OFA assumes that an elbow that has any bony changes at all, has FCP... But
since they can't actually see the FCP, they name the secondary changes (DJD)
If we did MRI's of the elbow, all of those DJD diagnoses should ( in theory)
change to FCP.
I assume someone did studies to verify what the OFA says... Would be nice to
know how many MRI's or surgery cases were evaluated.
The OFA will tell you that any DJD with negative UAP and OCD, is caused by
FCP.... But how do they really know???? I think they err on the side of
caution, which in their case is understandable.
Cyndi Flautt
www.carettigsd.com
sanderhaus@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Ironically I talked to Dr. Keller today. I wanted a clarification of this
DJD. Have no dogs with it but have inquired about a dog whose films were
just sent in to OFA that I had some interest in.
i asked why they dont put more than DJD on elbow results?
he said they do if it is visible. he said DJD is the side effect of one of
the 3 elbow dysplasias, UAP, FCP or OCD. He said UAP and OCD can be seen
on the x-ray so they would note it. if it is FCP it is a fragment that
cannot be seen by anyone as its inside the coronoid process and is not visible
on the films. He said if the result says DJD and nothing else, it is caused
by FCP (fragmented coronoid process) which is elbow dysplasia. DJD doesnt
happen alone. DJD is the side effect of ED. Period. So if vet’s can’t see
ED that’s because its FCP and OFA cant either.
Why did some pass OVC? I wonder too. Maybe because they are students and
not as experienced? I have no idea. Certainly not looking for a debate.
Trying to further educate myself thus the call to OFA.
OFA also is not saying a dog with DJD 1 will progress to a 2 or 3 grade.
this is also all on their website. Just that DJD is the result of ED.
Something I surely didn’t know.
susan
Sander-Haus German Shepherd Dogs
www.Sander-Haus.com
Members of GSDCA & GSDCA-WDA.
Signers of the GSDCA Breeders Code of Ethics
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