[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: DJD talked to Dr Keller/OVC not students
- From: "MORGAN LEWIS" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender "shadowland22000@xxxxxxxxx" for DMARC)
- To: marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 12:38:02 -0700
And the question remains how many good dogs have been removed from breeding
because of these x rays. but then again how many xrays are never submitted to
begin with. Look at all the Selects vs Ex Selects
Morgan Lewis, RPh.
Member GSDCA
President Last Hope of Georgia 501c3
"So Much to Do, So Little Time"
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 7/21/14, Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: DJD talked to Dr Keller/OVC not students
To: dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, sanderhaus@xxxxxxxxxxx,
Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Monday, July 21, 2014, 3:33 PM
One last experience we
had that I want to add to this.
Many years
ago we had a friend/breeder who bred her bitch to
our stud and kept a nice show bitch.
She started limping....X-rayed with breeders
Vet and submitted
to OFA for
pre-lims. Diagnosed with Elbow
dysplasia. Placed
in a pet
home. She limped for a couple of weeks so they set
it up for surgery from the Vet who X-rayed her
originally.
( he had done MANY OFA X-rays
for many breeders )
Once he
started surgery and opened it up, and could see the actual
elbow joint...he could find absolutely NO
SIGN of any wear and
tear or ANY elbow
dysplasia!
I have no
answers and I have no point....but I sure DO hate to
think
that OFA "assumes" they
should diagnose DJD because they have no
definite answer.
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.marhaven.com
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Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 12:16
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To: sanderhaus@xxxxxxxxxxx;
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Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: DJD talked to Dr
Keller/OVC not students
Sort of. The way it was explained to me is
that UAP and OCD could be seen
on an
x-ray and would be noted (that part we agree upon).
I was told if there was any
wear and tear they would rate it as DJD 1,2 or
3 and when they couldn't see anything else,
automatically assume FCP.
FCP is always checked when there is the result
of DJD, even though it is
not visible on
the x-rays.
It is
explained on their web site:
The fragmented coronoid process occurs at 4 to
10 months
of age. Unlike a UAP, an FCP may
not be visible radiographically
(Fig. 3).
Fissures in the cartilage or slightly irregular
articular margins would be the least abnormal
(Figs. 4 &
5). These changes are not
evident radiographically, but the
resulting degenerative changes would eventually
become evident
radiographically.
Definitive radiographic identification of FCP
often is not
possible because of
super-imposition of the radial head over
the medial coronoid process. In addition, the
central radiographic
beam rarely
intersects the cleavage line in a parallel
manner.
The diagnosis of the
FCP is typically from the secondary
degenerative changes that result from the
abnormality (Figs.
9& 10, page 5).
These are seen as early as 7 to 8 months of
age but may not be evident until maturity.
These are osteophytes
located on the
proximal and lateral aspects of the
anconeal
process. Similar changes on the medial humeral
epicondyle and medial aspects of the joint
develop as the disorder
progresses.
Sclerosis between the proximal radius and
ulna and/or an increased humeroradial joint
space maybe seen
on a lateral
projection.
___________________________
As far as OVC, no, not students...it is/was
their head honcho. I just
pulled out an
OVC form to get you a name. This was the last dog I did,
someone
wanted to use him before he was 2
so I sent the x-rays up to OVC because
they used to give a permanent # at 18 mo. The
vet was heather Chalmers,
DVM, Diplomate
ACVR, Assistant professor, Radiology. certainly no
student
<VBG>.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
visit http://www.pinehillgsds.com/
UAP and OCD
can be seen easily on an X-Ray. FCP is more difficult...
so the OFA assumes that an elbow that has any bony changes
at all, has FCP... But since they can't actually see the
FCP, they name the secondary changes (DJD) If we did
MRI's of the elbow, all of those DJD diagnoses should (
in theory) change to FCP.
I assume
someone did studies to verify what the OFA says... Would be
nice to know how many MRI's or surgery cases were
evaluated.
The OFA will tell you that any
DJD with negative UAP and OCD, is caused by FCP.... But how
do they really know???? I think they err on the side of
caution, which in their case is understandable.
Cyndi Flautt
www.carettigsd.com
sanderhaus@xxxxxxxxxxx
writes:
Ironically I talked
to Dr. Keller today. I wanted a clarification of this
DJD. Have no dogs with it but have inquired
about a dog whose films were
just sent in
to OFA that I had some interest in.
i asked
why they dont put more than DJD on elbow results?
he said they do if it is
visible. he said DJD is the side effect of one of
the 3 elbow dysplasias, UAP, FCP or OCD. He
said UAP and OCD can be seen
on the x-ray
so they would note it. if it is FCP it is a fragment that
cannot be seen by anyone as its inside
the coronoid process and is not visible
on
the films. He said if the result says DJD and nothing
else, it is caused
by FCP (fragmented
coronoid process) which is elbow dysplasia. DJD doesnt
happen alone. DJD is the side effect of ED.
Period. So if vet’s can’t see
ED that’s because its FCP and OFA cant
either.
Why did some pass
OVC? I wonder too. Maybe because they are students and
not as experienced? I have no idea. Certainly
not looking for a debate.
Trying to
further educate myself thus the call to OFA.
OFA also is not saying a dog
with DJD 1 will progress to a 2 or 3 grade.
this is also all on their website. Just that
DJD is the result of ED.
Something I surely didn’t know.
susan
Sander-Haus German Shepherd
Dogs
www.Sander-Haus.com
Members of GSDCA & GSDCA-WDA.
Signers of the GSDCA Breeders Code of
Ethics
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