I commented on why an inferior nation could defeat a superior invading nation if the people were hostile to that invading nation. In the case of Iraq is the Iraqi majority which favors democracy. Is it a Freudian slip that you identify Iraq with the insurgents, many of whom were shipped in from other countries? Iraq is indeed winning but with modern weapons which they use against the insurgents who are not winning. Don't say Keynes is not an assertion. That doesn't make any sense. Look up assertion. Look up argument. You are making assertions until you produce an argument. An assertion can be a premise but it can't be an argument. Lawrence _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:30 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Englehardt, Cold Warrior in a Strange Land Lawrence, I'm impressed. I almost didn't go into this link but I did it anyway. Since when do you read Russian? I'm not going to plow through this whole thing, but where did you see the $293 billion? (Not that that's exactly a small amount of money; a third of a trillion instead of a half.) This is getting weirder and weirder. When I went into your link on the web site, it came up in Russian. I found the armies page and the U.S. page. It's this link: http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/texts.pl?category=state <http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/texts.pl?category=state&mode=show&unit=19&lng= rus> &mode=show&unit=19&lng=rus When I went into it in on the email, it came up in English. So I take it back, I'm not impressed. You don't read Russian. Now after I send this I'll see if the link is in English or Russian. Anyway, Keynes is not an assertion. It's a theory. It was used during the Depression and used without calling it so during WWII. Supply side is another (Chicago School is yet another, but that's for another time; I'd have to refresh it for myself anyway. I think it's what the fed does. I love economics). Likewise, Vietnam took everything we gave them and didn't cave. Iraq is winning on home made stuff, and Afghanistan is the world largest narco state, producing 90% of the world's opium, almost completely lawless outside of Kabul. These are facts. Theories and arguments are okay, but money makes the world go round. And the U.S. is living on borrowed money. And now to see if the above site opens in Russian or English. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 3/23/2006 12:49:38 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Englehardt, Cold Warrior in a Strange Land How do I address unsupported assertions? I try not to. Try again with an argument. By the way, our military budget is $293 billion according to the Russians: http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/texts.pl?category=state <http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/texts.pl?category=state&mode=show&unit=19&lng= eng> &mode=show&unit=19&lng=eng _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:18 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Englehardt, Cold Warrior in a Strange Land Lawrence, how do you address the military Keynesianism? We're spending nearly half a trillion dollars a year on the military and we're flat out broke. We borrow that money, among other money. Our debt goes to paying the interest on what we borrow. The armies that defeated are all low tech: the Vietnamese, the Afghans (they beat the Russians' high tech army), now the insurgents with their IED's. The IED's are such a problem they're addressed separately by the military. You see the "imperalism" argument, while I saw the Keynesian argument. Getting into a tomato/tomahto argument about Imperialism doesn't address that we're spending half a trillion dollars on defense every year, yet 9/11 happened, Vietnam h appened, Afghanistan happened, Iraq happened. But don't tell me, I know, they're success stories, Vietnam could have been "won", etc. etc. so let's have it your way and end the discussion here. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 3/23/2006 11:39:20 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Englehardt, Cold Warrior in a Strange Land If this guy is a military historian, I feel sorry for the people who took his classes. One can intuitively know he is all wet by three facts. 1) He implies weve got wall-to-wall troops covering the planet but we by no means have the largest army on the planet. We didnt have enough troops to do engage in an overwhelming invasion of Iraq. Rumsfeld was faulted for not using more troops, but notice that there werent troops standing by with nothing to do. Notice that our existence troops had to serve two and three tours. Did they serve these multiple tours while zillions of Marines lived it up on Okinawa? 2) The U.S. has a history of isolationism. We never used to have much of a military and we paid for it more than once. We were ill-equipped in WWI and cover the ill-preparation with the fact that certain units fought well, especially at Bealleau Woods. But after that war to end all wars we disarmed, through our weapons away, and so were in no position to deter either Japan or Germany. Youd think we would have learned from that, but we were anxious to disarm after WWII once again. Englehardt hints at that when he speaks of the rapid rearmament beginning in 1947, but I enlisted in the USMC in 1952 and we had nothing but WWII weapons. If we had started rearming in 1947, it wasnt with any weapons that were handed down to the Marines. However, during the Cold War we did learn our lesson and resolved never to disarm agai n. It is about that that Englehardt complains. 3) Englehardt describes the trillions of dollars we spend on defense but then says that our weapons arent particularly good, and that other nations have built better ones. These two criticisms of the Pentagon are essentially contradictory. I worked with people in the Air Force who wanted us to consider how the latest scientific discoveries could be turned to military use. Not all of them were, but there were very smart people at the Pentagon asking all the right questions. A huge variety of studies were authorized and any new weapon had to not only prove its effectiveness but compete of a line-item in the military budget. What other nations could match this procedure? If a nation happened to build a weapon that was better at some particular action, it probably wasnt because we hadnt thought of it. It was pro bably because we had thought of it but decided on a different approach. Englehardt is taking a cheap shot and I cant help but wonder why he is taking it, this hippy want-to-be who wishes he had joined the anti-war movement? Five more points: 1) I wonder what sort of a military historian he was if he doesnt know that the Pentagon is supposed to war-game all potential threats to the U.S. He is appalled and surprised that the Pentagon did this. Im appalled and surprised that he didnt know this. He seems an isolationist at heart. He has the mindset that would have us surprised by military attacks and threats again and again. 2) Having just read a book by a better military historian, Bevin Alexander, I know it is now common knowledge that we cant win a war where we invade and successfully stay in a weaker nation that is hostile to us. The guerrillas of a weaker nation can always wear down and outlast a stronger nation. It can be said by way of explanation that we thought we would have popular support in Vietnam, that there was a way to win the hearts and minds of the South Vietnamese, but our enemy was better at that than we were. We fought the North Vietnamese with the same tactics the French used. We hadnt learned a thing from their defeat, but we have since. Better military historians than Englehardt have taught us the lessons we needed to learn. 3) When I was in the Marine Corps we led rough lives. After Vietnam, the draft was dead; so the alternative was to attract people into the military. Pay, living quarters, base facilities became much better. You didnt need to join the military to fight. You could join to get an education. This is a recent occurrence (since the 70s). 4) One of the most prolific and visible historians arguing that the U.S. is an empire is Niall Ferguson. Ive read some of his books and heard him speak on C-Span. I think there is nothing wrong with our being an Empire if that is what we are, but right after arguing that we are an Empire, he spends the rest of the time describing how we are doing everything wrong from an Imperial standpoint. The fact is we are not an Empire. The very term doesnt fit the modern situation. It is from an earlier era when there were kings and emperors. You dont have kings (at least not working kings) or emperors in the modern world and it serves little purpose as far as I can see to invoke a term from an earlier era. Perhaps it would have died out had Lenin not written Imperialism, the highest form of Capitalism. But as Andreas has mentioned we now have globablism, the IMF, and the World Bank. Not only that, the predilection of the average American citizen is still that of an isolationist. He wishes things could be as they once were when we could leave all those war-like Europeans to their own wars as long as they left us alone. 5) In order for the U.S. to be an empire, the people of the U.S. would have to have an Imperial mindset (as a majority once did in Imperial Britain), but that is never likely to be the case. Witness for example Bushs recent speeches. He realizes that the majority of the people in the U.S. dont understand what he is doing in Iraq. They dont understand for two reasons, 1) the Media hasnt provided a balanced view of the situation in Iraq, and 2) Bush hasnt explained his strategy well enough. He knows there is a minority that is dead-set against him. He wouldnt bother giving speeches to those people, but the majority who in another era might have an Imperial-mindset is another matter. In this era these people are isolationists at heart. They want to be convinced that their security is going to be improved by what i s going on in Iraq. Bush is now explaining that to them and I suspect his approval rating is going to climb. We may have weaponry suitable for an Empire, but we dont have the heart or the people for it. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Omar Kusturica Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:12 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Iran/al-Qaeda Ties Suggested For Lawrence and Eric, from a former US Navy officer. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HC23Aa01.html That's what's truly ominous about the American empire. In most empires, the military is there, but militarism is so central to ours - militarism not meaning national defense or even the projection of force for political purposes, but as a way of life, as a way of getting rich or getting comfortable. I guarantee you that the 1st Marine Division lives better in Okinawa than in Oceanside, California, by considerable orders of magnitude. After the Wall came down, the Soviet troops didn't leave East Germany for five years. They didn't want to go home. They were living so much better in Germany than they knew they would be back in poor Russia. Most empires try to disguise that military aspect of things. Our problem is: For some reason, we love our military. We regard it as a microcosm of our society and as an institution that works. There's nothing more hypocritical, or constantly invoked by our politicians, than "support our boys". After all, those boys and girls aren't necessarily the most admirable human beings that ever came along, certainly not once they get into another society where they are told they are, by definition, doing good. Then the racism that's such a part of our society emerges very rapidly - once they get into societies where they don't understand what's going on, where they shout at some poor Iraqi in English. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html