[LRflex] Re: Nikon Step Down Mechanism Ponderings
- From: "William B. Abbott III" <captbilly3@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: leicareflex@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 14:17:31 -0800
Richard,
I never said it would be simple.
You have just made my point and endorsed my strategy; thank you!
In addition, you have proposed a workable solution concerning where the
dividing line between "R9 front" and "D700 back" should be, requiring little or
no "exquisite engineering ... access to expertise ... Over coming the Camera
Software challenges..."
I am appreciative that we think alike.
Thanks,
Bill
On Jan 18, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Richard Ward wrote:
> Bill,
> I 'suspect' that the need to marry the electronics and mechanicals
> during an attempt to blend two 'foreign' camera bodies would require
> some
> Conceptually, I see it as much less invasive and much less
> daunting to find a way to knock half a millimeter off the lens flange
> to sensor distance in coming up with an R mount to bolt on AND find a
> way to run the wiring from the existing step down mechanism to one
> which would point in the right direction and have the proper throw
> distance. The Nikon AF mount electronics should be able to be 'left
> undisturbed' in most respects so as to not trigger electronic or
> software issues - they could be tucked back out of the way in some
> manner so they're still present physically, but no longer used. The
> Camera's Systems and Software are Designed to be used with completely
> Mechanical Lenses from the Beginning.
> There is always Tremendous Strength in Solutions that are the
> Simplest. Since the D700 is Designed for use with Mechanical Lenses,
> that removes a whack load of 'camera engineering' that would need to
> be done in blending an R9 with a D700. Since the D700 has motors/
> actuators for mechanical stop down lenses, it seems the simplest route
> is just wire a different motor/actuator to the existing systems for
> running one. What Wouldn't Be Simple is Engineering and Designing a
> Mount that Fits the existing attachment points and Designing the Right
> Actuator Arm for Operating the Leica Stop Down Actuator. After a
> 'Design' is come up with, it becomes a 'making one' proposition.
>
> I state unequivocally that Assumptions are a Dangerous Thing to Make.
> But.
> If one assumes my premises are at all correct about a D700 already
> being fully engineered to run Mechanical Lenses, that wiring a
> different actuator mechanism to the existing mechanism won't cause
> irreversible camera failure, and 'losing' half a flippin millimeter
> from a lens mount isn't all that difficult, then converting over a
> D700 isn't a very outlandish idea, after all.
>
> The 'Hard' part of making the Camera Itself Fully Functional with
> Mechanical Lenses has already been taken care of by Nikon for us.
> We would 'only' be coping with the Lens Flange Distance Obstacle and
> Engineering the Stop Down Actuator.
> (Don't you love how I say 'Only'! - Spoken like a true Optimist, eh?)
>
> Still, compared to blending the front of an R9 to the back of a D700,
> it would be a LOT less Daunting.
>
> Sincerely
> Richard in Michigan
>
> On Jan 18, 2011, at 2:41 PM, William B. Abbott III wrote:
>
>> Richard, Doug,
>>
>> You both are working at the R lens-N camera body interface and to be
>> successful their, you may have to conceive of some heavy machining
>> of the D700 camera body to enable a Leica lens mount to be fitted.
>>
>> Or, alternatively, you could move the R-D700 interface transition
>> back a notch or two further toward the sensor.
>>
>> Consider for a moment (just in your imagination!) attaching the
>> front half of an R8 or R9, with all of its lens-camera body
>> interface, plus the mirror, view finder and pentaprism intact, to
>> the back half of a D700, with all of its electronics, battery,
>> dials, button, switches, etc., all of the bits and pieces that were
>> encapsulated in the DMR.
>>
>> The interface would then in reality be at the point at which the
>> stream of light leaving the R lens enters the D700 digital domain,
>> at its sensor. Clean and simple, but requiring the sacrifice of an
>> R8 or R9 camera body and a D700 body, expensive sounding to be sure
>> but cheap if it would restore a whole flock of R lenses to their
>> usual operability and utility. It would not be an R10 but a RN,
>> essentially a simple, no fuss, no muss modernized DMR, with all the
>> mechanical functionality of a Leica and all the electrical
>> functionality of a D700.
>>
>> Alternatively, one could conceptualize gutting an R8 or R9 body of
>> its electronics and fitting it with the innards of a D700. New
>> production of the front half of an R8 or R9 is probably not possible
>> because the necessary jigs, fixtures and tooling and piece-part
>> supplier-streams have long been abandoned, but I am confident that
>> if Leica wanted to do it they could make it happen.
>>
>> Would the D700 electronics, etc. fit? Many years ago, I was told by
>> a Leica dealer that the R8 (and subsequent) R9 form factor was
>> deliberately made large and spacious not only for superb handling
>> ergonomics but to "leave enough room" to accommodate further, larger
>> digital electronics.
>>
>> Whether true or not, what is true is that battery sizes have
>> decreased remarkably since the time of the DMR as has (I can only
>> imagine this because I have no data) the size of the required
>> electronics. In this case the interface would still be in the stream
>> of light leaving the R lens and entering the D700 digital sensor
>> domain with all of its accoutrements.
>>
>> As in everything, this may sound simple (or simple-minded!) and I
>> know the devil is in the details so it most assuredly won't be
>> simple; I am sure that I have overlooked a number of crucial points.
>> That's life.
>>
>> Thanks for setting me off on this flight of fancy which I have
>> enjoyed. I hope you enjoy it too.
>>
>> If someone who has the resources, experience and skills wanted to
>> try, I believe I would cheerfully consider donating my R9 and help
>> with the cost of the sacrificial D700.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2011, at 1:36 AM, Richard Ward wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Group,
>>> I'm probably not the first Photographer to wonder about how to
>>> overcome the Lack of Automatic Apertures when attempting to use R
>>> Glass on a Non-Leica dSLR due to being Orphaned Off by Leica.
>>> Probably
>>> won't be the last.
>>>
>>> However, I think I might have an angle which might be able to be
>>> exploited to reach the goal of an Auto Aperture, NO Stop Down
>>> Metering
>>> Bedeviled route to use R lenses on a high quality dSLR.
>>>
>>> The First Part of My Wonderings Are:
>>> *Since Nikon Maintains Full Auto Aperture, Auto-exposure, Matrix
>>> Metering compatibility for all their Manual Focus lenses (So Long As
>>> They Are AIS/AIS Converted).
>>> *This Implies there is an Engineered Mechanical Mechanism of some
>>> sort
>>> interacting with those AIS Manual Focus Lenses in order to operate
>>> the
>>> Stop Down Lever.
>>> *I'm led to then wonder about: How different are the Nikon and
>>> Leica R
>>> in a) placement of their Stop Down Levers & in b) how much force
>>> required to operate the Stop Down Mechanisms?
>>>
>>> If their is a gross similarity in the forces required to operate,
>>> that
>>> they operate in similar mechanical means (pushing a pin in/out or
>>> swing it side to side), and if the general placement of the Leica R
>>> stopdown mechanism is roughly in the neighborhood of where it's found
>>> on a Nikon Lens: Could the Nikon Stop Down Activation "Arm" be fitted
>>> with a 'metal sleeve or CNC milled adapter plate' so the forces it
>>> applies would appropriately land as needed on a Leica R Lens
>>> Mechanism?
>>>
>>> The Second Part of My Wonderings Are:
>>> * Are the 'gross' physical lens flange to sensor specifications of
>>> the
>>> Leica R and the Nikon Mounts more than a few Millimeters Different?
>>> If
>>> not, how difficult would it be to remove the Lens Mount from a D700
>>> or
>>> a Pro Level D1/D2/D3 (sacrificing Nikon Lens Compatibility) and
>>> install a CNC Milled Leica R Lens Mount?
>>> * I know that it's possible to put a Leica R Mount in various Sigma
>>> Fovenon dSLRs - but there is no lens stop down capability.
>>>
>>> In Conclusion:
>>> * If the lens stop down mechanism for Manual Focus Lenses that's
>>> possibly in the top tier Nikon Bodies could be reengineered to
>>> actuate
>>> a Leica R Stop Down Lever.
>>> -AND-
>>> *The Nikon Lens Mount swapped out for one milled for the proper Lens
>>> to Sensor/film plane Specifications.
>>> *I don't see where it would be all that exceptionally elaborate to
>>> convert a Nikon dSLR to one where Leica R Glass will operate as
>>> intended. Nikon, unlike Canon & Others, have full compatibility with
>>> using Manual Focus (non electronic/non AF) Lenses built into their
>>> Software, Electronics, and Mechanical Systems. No programming/
>>> reprogramming needed, no fancy computer work, no electrical
>>> engineering required.
>>>
>>> Couldn't a couple of creative tinkerers, a machinist or two, and a
>>> few
>>> helpful photographers, figure out whether my Ponderings and
>>> Wonderings
>>> are Functionally Feasible.
>>> With a little luck, a CNC Milled Lens Mount/Plate combined with an
>>> adapter arm for the Stop Down Mechanism, might turn out to do the
>>> trick and give LRflex'ers Fully Functional DSLRs with Auto Apertures,
>>> Fancy Metering, High FPS, etc etc etc.
>>>
>>> Richard in Michigan
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